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  1. #21
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    I apologise if i have caused offence, that was not my intent.

    My suggestion was intended to illustate the fact that ALL members should be able to include valid opinions. Inclusion, of this topic, in the directors forum would have enabled employers to thrash out their own idea's, without fear of castigation and unconstructive comments.

  2. #22
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    I agree ...

  3. #23
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    So what is a criteria to being involved/member of this?

    There HAS to be such or it is as worthless as Zimbabwian dollars.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by polarserv international View Post
    Interesting..............

    Playing devils advocate here when I ask 'What would differentiate the proposed "Association of professional Security Operatives" from all the other , so called professional bodies that supposably represent the industry. For example the BBA, IBA, PBA etc., etc., etc?'

    Personaly, I think there is a definate need for a recognised, professional representative body; one that will represent both employers, employees and independant operators.

    As an employer, i am willing to offer support for any such issues that effect the industry as a whole, however the word "Union", and the the terms "employees rights" and "working conditions" smack of unilateral marxism.

    If you are intend to utilise a holistic ethos and consider multilateral issues, then count me in.


    Cripes... Don't think I have ever agreed and disagreed with a single post before...
    I to wonder if yet another 'association' will make a diference? Without offical standing it would be yet another toothless tiger...
    So that brings me to Union... Whats wrong with that Polar? (My grandfather is now spinning in his grave) Not all unions are screaming Marxists... They represent the views of the membership. So I doubt a union made up largely of ex-servicemen would have a Marxist 'tint' more a 'Thatcherist' one if anything...
    If this organisation is to be able to make a difference to the industry, it needs official standing, not just good intentions...
    That all said, if I can assist, I will..

  5. #25
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    I think the wording is vitally important. A 'Union' to me screams problems as in 'Trouble makers'.

    I think the basis of this set up is as the result of a particular 'Authority' not doing their job properly in the first place albeit with a somewhat different remit. I think we need to decide on what aspects of the wider security world we want to include. I do believe that surveillance and CP go hand in hand and therefore naming it solely anything to do with just 'Bodyguarding' or 'CP' would not be correct.

    I would certainly call it an 'Authority' as it is re-laying the ground rules for increased standards. To that end; maybe someone could ask a lawyer if this is indeed possible?



    Rich H

  6. #26
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    Morning all,

    Again quite an emotive thread to something we all should hold dear to our hearts, our industry!

    There are alot of different terms being banded around, federation, association & union to name a few, call it what you will, (i think that ex-service personnel balk at the term "union" & all its conitations, who gets the shout when different services go on strike.......i rest my case)

    However, one point is vital if this is to have a hope in hell of getting off the ground & that is official recognition. I would strongly suggest that baring a miracle the present Goverment is out on its arse & unemployed at the next general election!

    That means that all the sabre rattling & chest beating being done is somewhat wasted unless we (as in the industry) focus our attentions on the possible future Goverment.

    I would suggest that we (the industry) start lobbying Baroness Pauline Neville-Jones, who is the shadow security minister & national security advisor to David Cameron. I would strongly suggest that any correspondance to the minister is done in letter form & not e-mail, the reason.......if her office receives post they are more likely to take notice.

    Also without wishing to offend people, the wording of such letters must be constructive, saying that the SIA is Bollocks might be true, but it does nothing to enhance the baroness' opinion of the industry or further the cause to which we are all striving.

    Again, this is only my opinion & look forward to reading your replies.

    James Mc
    Last edited by James Mc; 10-02-2009 at 10:38.

  7. #27
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    Guys Guys please!!

    Lets stay on track here...... there is no 'Union' or pressure group in the planning here...... its a very simple idea which is danger of being made extremely complicated!!

    We are here to agree who is going to represent the idea tp the employer companies and to vet those who put themselves forward. Thats step one..!!

    Step two is compile a list of recommendations and ideas and air those.

    Step three is take from those any which are workable and practical and there we need feedback from the trainers because a lot of that will go to cost and we cannot expect trainers to agree to a format which is unsellable and/or too expensive to deliver.

    Step four is register an organization which represents these agreed ideals and then seek recognition of it from major employers and reputable trainers etc.....that should be easy because we will then have put into practise what they themselves have suggested.

    Why are now debating Unions and so on.?..... anyone that wants to go that route do so.......its unrelated!!

    As far as earlier comments about moving this to the directors forum etc...... this whole idea will not happen unless the process is open and accountable....however......... debating and discussing has to be with the end goal in sight and decisions have to reached which represent the majority of opinion. Lets all accept right here and now that we are not going to please everybody!! The only wrong thing to do is nothing!!!!

    We are talking here about instilling in our industry a higher standard of training......whilst agreeing to the SIA minimum and delivering that.......nothing more!!!! We are not bashing the SIA..... we are not dealing directly with the issue about low pay rates etc. Lets stay focused.....read the thread that led to this!!!

    morrigan
    Last edited by Marcus - Morrigan; 10-02-2009 at 10:44.

  8. #28
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    Guys,

    I have done much to attempt in changing both the NOS & APL for Close Protection. My aim was to raise the standards that were created by S4S and the SIA. All avenues I went down from The Home Office, The Cabinet Office Better Regulation Executive, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Skills For Security and the SIA themselves. The sole aim - to raise the decided standards and implement a more reality driven framework for the basis of APL, Close Protection training, operational standards, and the employment practise of CP Officers in the UK.

    Alas, brick walls were hit and the impression that too much work had been done to get where they are to start going back over things again. In their eyes, a consultation with industry was formed and results from those consultations is where we are today. In their eyes their project plan was beyond reproach and that any conclusions to the contary to their findings can be purely described as 'you can't please everyone' syndrome.

    I have no commercial gain in anything. I am a privately employed Global Head of Security. Heck - I don't even need an SIA piece of plastic. All I wanted was to improve the terrible standards already implemented that are causing the headaches we are now experiencing.

    I don't believe any consultation on our part will make any difference regardless of which party are in government. Many commercial training organisations out there will not be interested in change. Why? - Because it will cost them time which will cost them money. They are where they are because of the low standards. Increasing the standards has to involve over 75% of those companies and whilst I agree and applaud what is being discussed on this forum, I don't for one minute believe that this will result in anything positive.

    I am not one for pessimism but am for reality. This process if embarked upon will indeed be an uphill struggle and I wish all those involved the very best.


    Rich H
    Last edited by Rich H; 10-02-2009 at 11:00.

  9. #29
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    sorry gents.I have read all posts and on same end I belive nothing good is going to happend....
    You can still count on me if you WANT TO RISE STANDARDS...but now this thread looks to me more like politics .BLALAA BLAH BLAHH blllaaaa ....to much talking no action....
    Im not running big company and I do not employ 100 of operatives but I can see Polserw point ...I understand what Morrigan is saing and Rich and...
    but after so many posts I just dont remember what is THE TARGET for this topic what we are traing to achive and how we would like to rise standards.
    I feel sometimes that we as a members of this forum can only talk and argue to prove ouer point of view but so far (sadly...) we can not do something constructive together.

    altrough Im still wishing to support idea but I think I will watch more expirienced in action..
    SEB
    (sorry for any grammar mistakes )

  10. #30
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    Behind you 100% on this one.

    It's about time we all got together on such an important issue to all of us.

    If you need donations for the admin side of this then I'm sure we will all put into a pot of some sorts.

    Moomin

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