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Association of Professional Security Operatives

Oddjob

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#41
Darren:


Get the standards improved, and the wages for CPOs will eventually rise, as the low quality providers/people that can't or won't meet the standards exit the market.

Regards,

Dave
Seem to remember this being a promisery arguement for the formation of the SIA. That came true then !
Nice theory, but in practise it has been a cluster f*%k of Royal dimensions. Payment = CPO.

Darren I refer to unions and representative bodies as the SIA just isn't working, otherwise this topic wouldn't be on the forum
Unions and representative bodies, are a good collective bargaining tool, for pay, conditions, standards and Protection.
Could you honestly say that The industry is doing really well on its own ? I use unions as a term, because they have the experience and infrastructure already. Careful selection, would be the key, to true rep.

I Remember the old boys network as a good 'reputable way' to find work (still is in some of our cases)
Thats 'reputable way' in the true sense of the word. Reputation.
Not empty paper qualifications as we seem to have now.

Strangely enough and contrary to my current arguement, I Didn't seem to mind foriegn CPOs as much back then, as I hadn't been forced to pay £3-6000, for the privelage of doing what I'd done all those years without the SIA.
(£3-6,000 is made up of course fees, license application, and loss of wages whilst training to pass SIA test. and if you stuck to the letter of the law on delayed applications, well you could add 6 months wages on top.)
If laws are set, as with the SIA, they only work if they are applied, otherwise they are ignored, wither, die, and prove of no benefit, the inequality leads to dissatisfaction and division.

Again darren I agree with the centre of excellence sentiment, but I think you will have to take the SIA out of the equation, as their efforts have been amatuerish at best, and close to divisive in reality.
This really does seem to fire the thoughts on the forum, excellent.
 

darren7455

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#42
Seem to remember this being a promisery arguement for the formation of the SIA. That came true then !
Nice theory, but in practise it has been a cluster f*%k of Royal dimensions. Payment = CPO.

Darren I refer to unions and representative bodies as the SIA just isn't working, otherwise this topic wouldn't be on the forum
Unions and representative bodies, are a good collective bargaining tool, for pay, conditions, standards and Protection.
Could you honestly say that The industry is doing really well on its own ? I use unions as a term, because they have the experience and infrastructure already. Careful selection, would be the key, to true rep.

I Remember the old boys network as a good 'reputable way' to find work (still is in some of our cases)
Thats 'reputable way' in the true sense of the word. Reputation.
Not empty paper qualifications as we seem to have now.

Strangely enough and contrary to my current arguement, I Didn't seem to mind foriegn CPOs as much back then, as I hadn't been forced to pay £3-6000, for the privelage of doing what I'd done all those years without the SIA.
(£3-6,000 is made up of course fees, license application, and loss of wages whilst training to pass SIA test. and if you stuck to the letter of the law on delayed applications, well you could add 6 months wages on top.)
If laws are set, as with the SIA, they only work if they are applied, otherwise they are ignored, wither, die, and prove of no benefit, the inequality leads to dissatisfaction and division.

Again darren I agree with the centre of excellence sentiment, but I think you will have to take the SIA out of the equation, as their efforts have been amatuerish at best, and close to divisive in reality.
This really does seem to fire the thoughts on the forum, excellent.
I make you 100% correct mate, the SIA's failure to deliver is the very reason that such an organisation is required. They (to my mind) only appear to have achieved exellence in one area, ad one are only; revenue generation and collection!

There's also been some interesting developments with certain contracts stipulating SIA registered CPO's for UK contracts in HE e.g outside of UK territorial waters. Difficult to state fully (as there may be some legal implications) but it basically breaches certain EU tender regulations. Very good chance of yet more egg on face scenarios, if you get my drift...
 

Oddjob

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#43
My point exactly.........unconstructive criticism is counterproductive. Do you honestly think that the SIA listens to this type of input "What does the sia do for you ? F*^k all is the answer. They take your money, pass incompetents, people who can't speak English, employ non-SIA people themselves, when as directors they are meant to manage and control things. Hypocrits............. GET A BLOODY UNION NOW."

For any such proposals to be viable, employers MUST be involved at grass roots level. For representation to be accepted it MUST include members at ALL levels

I only suggested that this matter is ALSO discussed in the private forum for directors.

If the proposed formation of "APSO" is primarily to represent employees then it will be a nonstarter. You have to appreciate that it's the employers that hold the purse strings, and as such, it is the employers that have the most influence.
So you've got the most influence then !
You trying to tell us it's not the SIA thats at fault, its these influential directors or employers, such as yourself.
As surely you'd have done something by now.
Or maybe its a case of I'm alright Jack.
You don't want or need our opinions, sorry 'rantings'.
Well I'll bid you good day, and doff me cap to my over see'ers and betters. (sorry can't quite get the victorian tone to this)
we obviously need a rep' body. Be that a Union, an association or whatever. But WE need it, we are the employees who need representing not just to the sia, (do you think you represent our interests ? ye right !) We need representing to the likes of you.
Thankfully your attitude seems quite rare with the employers I know, so there's hope for us yet.
I don't know you and I am probably being very unfair, all the guys who work for you will probably say I've got you wrong. But it sure don't read that way here.
Careful selection of a rep body is the way. Its not the 70-80s industrial relations has moved on, your McCarthy attitude on this is unwarranted.
Go on check there's no one under the bed.
But if you know best, and we should be grateful to me lord, sir.
Then, OK, off you go. and shut the door as your leaving on the way to your private forum.
PS. the SIA should listen to the above comments, its causing division, anger and great dissatisfaction, at the sharp end.
They seem to have the attitude that they have the power and we don't matter. Shit that seems to be a common theme.
I do appreciate your openess, for showing your true colours.
 
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Oddjob

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#44
Thanks James link #26.
good idea, look forward to what comes next and who to focus on,
thanks it gives a positive direction, this goverment oversaw the abominasion that is the SIA, hopefully a new goverment will get it, with a little help and information from the front line
if we prep the successors, they might want to muster our support, and hence actually do something to curry favour with us, see us as a good thing.
The way forward is discussion and an agreed direction for action.
Its a bloody mountain to climb as I feel we've slipped so far.
The infrastructure to set up a representative body is a nightmare in itself.
Cost, time, effort, organisation. etc. So an amalgamation with an existing body,
might prove beneficial, at least at outset. Just my thoughts, no right or wrong here.
As regards my language on this open forum. Well yes it might seem a bit barrack room in its expression. But I'm talking to us and those like us.
I feel comfortable in this open forum and feel I can express myself freely.
When it comes to an official or non-coms address, I will apply the language that is appropriate to the occassion. (benefits of an education)
To do nothing, because I'm alright Jack, would be wrong and damaging to the industry. We need to influence how we work, we know whats needed, we've just got to find a way to fix it and take it forward.
There are some brave boys out there attempting this already, You have my fullest support and appreciation.
 
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rufuss666

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#46
At the end of the day lets face it, the sia has done sod all for me and i would guess 99.9% of you other than cost me £4000 to "get qualified" and sent me a plastic card. The fees for licensing are a complete piss take and waiting time to get your badge is even worse than ever.
A simple example for me is that i wrote to ask if the sia would ever consider restricting CP training because it seems clear to me that there is 50+ licensed guys going for every available job and the market is flooded with "qualified" guys. As a member i thought that maybe someone might get off there arse and send me a reply even if it was to say sod off dick head, least i'd know someone took the time to read it but i didnt even get that.

Anyway my point is, anything has to be an improvement on what we have got now and i wish you all the best in the world mate, someone has to make the first move so well done for stepping up.

Anything you need let me know, my other half is studying law and graduates soon so she might be able to help on some legal aspects.

keep safe guys.
 

annie

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#47
Sorry but this isn't about getting one over on any one organisation, it is about actually taking our own industry into our own hands. Making a difference, it is and never was about getting one over on anyone. Sorry but I know for a fact after many conversations with Adam over a few years that he has always been passionate about one thing and that was to make a difference but a difference that everyone could contribute to and therefor take this industry into our own hands. It isn't about unions as such, there is no Arthur Scargill, it should be what will best benefit the industry and as such benefit the men and women who work in the industry everyday. They are the ones who should have a say in how these things should be run.

It was never about making a few look great, it was always about making the industry better. Making everyone in the industry THINK about what was happening, about how things were sisintegrating, not about blame, it was never about blame. Why waste time pointing fingers and casting blame when you can take a good idea and go somewhere with it.
 

Oddjob

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#48
Annie, I agree wholeheartedly with your sentiments.
We all want to take the industry forward,
I use the following anology: if we are the river, then the SIA is polluting the water in a tragic way. and we need an NRA to sort it out. Some one who understands what keeps the rivers healthy.
We as a trade and skill need to be represented, we are not represented presently, not by the trainers, not by the employers and not by the SIA. Agreed ?
Who will represent us,? who will take up the gauntlet now ?, not get distracted by the creation of all the infrastructure thats needed and having to create an effective admin and membership, who has the experience.
All I say is why waste our time struggling up the learning curve, when there are many out there ready, willing and able.

And for Gods sake can we drop the McCarthy, Scargill, Thatcher lines.
We are in the 21st century.
Most of the unions are seen as a contributor to the industries they represent these days. I also wonder how many of you can remember the 80s from an adult point of view.
Please, please don't bang on about the Rail Union crap,
That is 1 out of a hundred unions, effective but militant. Not for us, I think, Agreed.
Look at the emergency services unions as an example, or the maritine unions as associations that truly represent their members.

Union-Association-representative body-council-senate-federation-society.
Call it what you will.
But its got to be ready to act on our behalf to improve the industry in the way we want and need, its not just about money. Its about reputation, we are being undermined by the quality of operator appearing on the scene. These bods must be trained by someone ? approved by someone ? and licensed by the SIA.
We need to police ourselves, not shrug, ignore it and carry on.
' I'm alright Jack ' is a very poor motto for us to have.
 

annie

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#50
It is time that we stood up for ourselves in my personal opinion. And yes i do think that the SIA have to play a part in it as love them or loathe them, and yes generally i know it is the latter, they are the one's who ultimately issue the licences to work and hold all of us in their grubby paws, so they will need to play some role, however distatesful we may find that. We simply cannot ignore the fact that they say yea or nay to us. They have been tasked with that job. And sorry for the scargill reference i was merley trying to make a point that it isn't a path that we need to be going down.

Many will hide their heads in the sand and just hope for the best, or hope others sort the problem out for them, but it needs leadership and it needs to be a group of people who really understand what the industry requires, that is those who are employed and those who do the employing to give it credence and a worthwhile existence.

Nobody is going to just take the employees stance it needs the backing of those who are working their arses off to get the contracts so they can in turn give us the work, but we simply cannot sit and watch as the industry goes into further decline on the path to ruin that it is on now. Every industry needs guidance and boundaries
 

Oddjob

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#52
Hmm Club Flesh Oddjob, didn't realise you were a Campberwell local ;)

Don't get too excited sunbeam, they came to my venue when I had a club for the MI6 Shy-boys down Vauxhall way.
Your actually worrying me now.
If you mention the father red cap, well thats it: I'll excommunicate you.
ps. Is that a pick up line 'Camp'berwell, or are you Dyslexic, either way. Your lifting your leg on the wrong tree, I'm daft not 'light in the loafer'.
I'm the nut who married an Italian/Irish girl. (keeps my CQB skills up to speed)
 
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Nomad

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#53
Well you are quite safe there I am quite harmless but your attention to the "top tips" did make me laugh! Just used to know a seamstress from Skin Two that took me down the dark side for a while so knew the name of that club from that time!

Jolly useful clothing for the wet british weather though haha!
 

Oddjob

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#56
Roger that, (for want of a better phrase)
Did you ever come across Mistress Mandie,
The name strikes fear into all the RMP of a certain age and time.
Ah, the Tales we could tell !
 

annie

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#57
As i asked earlier how do you propose to actually do this? By that i mean i do think it is a great idea, just curious as to how it will actually work..... (and yes i know i started it, but oddjob helped lead me astray)
 

Nomad

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#58
Roger that, (for want of a better phrase)
Did you ever come across Mistress Mandie,
The name strikes fear into all the RMP of a certain age and time.
Ah, the Tales we could tell !
I don't think I asked nicely enough :D

If you remember the American chick from skin two, Vauxhall then you know why I was scared then haha! Now that could be interesting recruiting some of those door bitches, you would not mess with them!
 

Oddjob

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#59
Get your thread back on topic NOMAD tut tut
It can't be, can it, Thats never Rubber Annie, sister to Rubber Johnnie.
I'll stop now.
Must cut out the drinking in the mornings.

Back to militancy and bringing anarchy to the UK.
Up the Unions, Right up the unions !
Calm down you toffs, owners and industrialists out there.
Only Joking.
I want whats best for us, but we need a decision, we are being wrecked by division.
Lets be democratic about this.
Make a list of possibles, who will represent us then take a straw poll on it, or at least find a short list.
Then get em to post what they've got to say.
Time to move on start walking and talking.
Any nominations then and maybe some justification for your choice .
 

AthenaIntelligence

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#60
Industry standards are one thing. Demands on pay/conditions are another. I have said this previously... and I'll repeat it here, get a good employer!! Yes, there are sharks out there who shaft their employees - we all know who they are - however, they have a rep for that and will, one day, find it hard to recruit and fulfill their contracts.

By imposing rules (rather than guidance/best practice) we risk pricing ourselves out of a market and cheaper options being investigated by companies - simply because they are, after all, commercial entities that must make profit to survive/expand etc. It is this very profit that keeps them in business and able to employ.

I understand that people are frustrated, but I wonder how demands on pay would affect the membership unity. By this, I mean, if the newly proposed body insisted on £ X per operator per day and an employer was not able to finance that, he would not recruit from that body. But.... how many members of that body would prefer not to work at all than to pick up a cheque for something at the end of the day even if it was below what the guidance states? Hence the unity would crumble.

These are tight times for all. We should be wary about over-regulation or creation of another 'self licking lollipop'.

By all means, I believe people should consider individual, voluntary union membership - but an(other) industry body?
 
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