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Can a "bouncer" (door staff/security) at a pub or nightclub legitimately use

mjay

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#21
I run a door at a local club in which I have 5 door supervisors answering to me and im telling you all straight no matter what happens if any of them struck a punter theyd be on their last shift! Eject yes but a thump is never nesecary if they see situation escelate out of controll they contact the pilice but never and i mean nver do they actuallt thump someone. The first time other punters see that they think its ok and you have a whole heap of trouble to deal with.
 

Oddjob

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#22
Although I agree with you on the restrain and contain principles. There will be, and after 30 years of this believe me, there will be a time. When its a full moon on friday the 13th. And the boss has booked 2 stag does, because they've paid up front,
one is a group of surgeons and the others are from the British medic council.
( ask John Twells about that one)
Seems Safe. All of a sudden these people who are used to giving orders, turn into rowing students again. Ratio of 5 combatants to one DS.
Your going to give up, your club, not just to them; but to the detriment of the safety of your other punters.
When the clubs license is up for renewal, you will either be gone or explaining how you lost total control of the situation. I know its rare but you must be ready to make a stand.
Any one aware of the concept of a 'ZULU TEAM'.
In the West End we always had one in reserve.
Give it up once and equally other punters see it and think its OK.
I do agree with you, that a bully DS or a scared hand ready reactionary DS is not welcome.
Each incident must be weighed on its own merits.
Aint no hard and fast rules in DS or CP worlds. Except do the job and go home alive.
Sounds like you run a good door though, stay safe and support your team.
best of luck man.
You get a name as Easy meat. I wonder at a lot of the new DS graduates and worry about their abilities.
 

Oddjob

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#23
I've been to AUS and NZ, that might be the letter of the law. But it aint what I've witnessed. Difference with the ex-colonials is they take it on the chin if they are pratts, and bang out of order,
admittedly they'll often come back for more, but they know whats fair and aren't a bunch of bleeding heart, .I know my rites' crowd.
p.s. to bloody hot there, especially up Mount Isa way.
 

Oddjob

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#25
Mjay. Oh I see you reacted to good luck man. ( a hippy term of endearment).
You don't need to qualify your sex Mjay, the fact that you step up to plate of a night is all we need to Know. Gay, Straight, unsure, male, female. They all have a role, and none of us carry the same skills. Its the combination of these varied skills that is the key.
A good hand at the tiller is a part of this team work.
Stay safe Mjay. and watch out for those full moons.
 

starling

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#26
2 many soooo called hard men out there that CANT do the job...Hence the badge now adays!...

It's No longer a must to hit drunking kids, or mouthed off everyday yobs....

IF you KNOW wot it's all about, then its about ''TACT'' DECORUM'' and getting Ourselfs and public WHOM, (other wise, without the influence) be as nice as you and me....HOME in ONE piece and do our job....

OUR Job AINT to knock people out and we are TRAINED..(well cp's are) to use our training as a VERY LAST resort...The police are called to deal with it, GONE are the days of Fat, so called Hard men standing at doors, thinking there the be it....

If thats what you THINK you are, then you had better walk away as you are only bringing the Security Industry as a whole, down.
 

Mali

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#27
Reasonable and neccessary are always key words,personally i find it a last resort and always try to talk a situation down first,less paperwork.
Absolutely. Reasonable, proportionate and necessary is the mantra and as someone has already stated R Vs Beckford(stated case) states that you are entitled to use a preemptive strike if you believe that the subject is about to assault you. Precluding factors are worth thining about ie your size,skill level, the list is endless and reverseable to the subject.
 

furious

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#28
Doorwork just ain't what it used to be, too many weekend warriors who talk the talk but can't walk the walk nowdays. I've been doing it 20 years and similar to oddjob have seen the changes through the years. Everyones a thug untill they are thaught a lesson, then they are a blameless victim. everyone knows their rights.

Situations differ, if you have four or five guys at the front door, giving it the big one, full of wiskey and coke (not talkin about cola!) and they start reigning in punches, hell yes I'm going to dish out! I'm going home to my wife and child at the end of the night!
The problem is the softness in society, people don't want to admit that we are all still animals, we behave like primates when enraged and we fight just like any other animal. I'm not a bully, I despise bullies, I have never in my life started a fight, but I have finished many and will continue to do so as long as i can.
The industry has gone way too P.C, society has gone way too P.C, which allows the sociopaths out there a free reign to do whatever the **** they want.
 

furious

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#29
plus I don't care about being called a "bouncer". I have been called much worse begining with a "b"
 

furious

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#30
Absolutely. Reasonable, proportionate and necessary is the mantra and as someone has already stated R Vs Beckford(stated case) states that you are entitled to use a preemptive strike if you believe that the subject is about to assault you. Precluding factors are worth thining about ie your size,skill level, the list is endless and reverseable to the subject.

Pre-emptive strike is a subject that is very misunderstood, there is a big difference between a pre-emptive on a door and a pre-emptive from a street self defence situation. Geoff thompson and some others sell seminars in "3 second knockouts" e.t.c. See how far you get with that on a door when the guy fractures his skull on the pavement and dies two days later,

Two recent cases come to mind from central London, In one a punch was thrown by a customer at a D.S who ducked and struck back, the customer fell over, fractured his skull and died. RESULT six years for manslaughter for the D.S. Second case a customer jumped off a step tp kick a D.S in the face, who put up both hands and pushed the customer with both hands on the chest, he fell over, smacked his head and died from the injuries. The result - D.S cleared of any wrong doing, self defense.
 

Mali

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#31
Pre-emptive strike is a subject that is very misunderstood, there is a big difference between a pre-emptive on a door and a pre-emptive from a street self defence situation. Geoff thompson and some others sell seminars in "3 second knockouts" e.t.c. See how far you get with that on a door when the guy fractures his skull on the pavement and dies two days later,

Two recent cases come to mind from central London, In one a punch was thrown by a customer at a D.S who ducked and struck back, the customer fell over, fractured his skull and died. RESULT six years for manslaughter for the D.S. Second case a customer jumped off a step tp kick a D.S in the face, who put up both hands and pushed the customer with both hands on the chest, he fell over, smacked his head and died from the injuries. The result - D.S cleared of any wrong doing, self defense.
I also ended up as a defendant not quite as bad as above. Wont go into specifics but used force and arrested two, both charged. Ended up case dropped against them me in the box for assault. On the day majistrate a star, threw it all out and said that my actions(on my own) reasonable etc. Thats why i mentioned the precluding factors , lots has to do with the way we tell the story. It used to be that when asked how hard you hit someone either with empty hand or baton you replied "as hard as i could". (Taught by the CRS Instructors)This has all changed now its as hard as i thought necessary. Preemptive perfectly legal but needs justification, if you are 2 mtrs tall and hold several blackbelts it may be a hard sell if the guy having a go is tiny and showing no real skills. My case is a perfect example Police officer doing my job as well as a CRS instructor who wrote things up well in my notebook and statement, however all it would have needed was a corroborated statement and usually sorted.
 

db1

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#32
2 many soooo called hard men out there that CANT do the job...Hence the badge now adays!...

It's No longer a must to hit drunking kids, or mouthed off everyday yobs....

IF you KNOW wot it's all about, then its about ''TACT'' DECORUM'' and getting Ourselfs and public WHOM, (other wise, without the influence) be as nice as you and me....HOME in ONE piece and do our job....

OUR Job AINT to knock people out and we are TRAINED..(well cp's are) to use our training as a VERY LAST resort...The police are called to deal with it, GONE are the days of Fat, so called Hard men standing at doors, thinking there the be it....

If thats what you THINK you are, then you had better walk away as you are only bringing the Security Industry as a whole, down.
Its the badge has has brought this industry into the mess it is. Yes a few idiots have been weeded out but then it has also meant that any numptie with £500 or a free pass from the job centre can get a badge.

And the job has never been about hitting drunken kids or mouthy yobs - it has always been about ensuring that everyone (including staff and team mates) had a good night and went home safe - repsect for each other.

How does the training accepted by the sia train/teach someone to deal with an aggressive coked up idiot, how does it train you to deal with that female that is determined that her stiletoe is going to look better sticking out of your head instead of on her foot?
How is calling the police going to save you from that person that has just smashed a glass and is about to shove it in your face in a matter of split seconds?
Is offering to buy tham a drink or call them a taxi going to help? Is shouting stop stop stop with an outstretched palm going to help?

Its not a case and has never been a case of standing on a door and thinking you're a hard person.
Its always been a case of knowing how to deal with situations and how far to take the way you have chosen to deal with each situation.
Its about understanding that no two situations are the same and cannot be dealt with in the same way.
Its about recognising that sometimes an amount of force is required to bring a satisfactory solution to a situation.
Its about recgonising just how much force is needed to protect yourself and ensure the safety of others around you.
Its about understanding the true meaning of reasonable force.
 

furious

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#33
Would agree with you mate, but as you say you were lucky, a good rule of tump is never to admit to striking with a closed fist as it is considered as an un-natural movement that requires pre-concieved thought (ridiculous!), "I pushed him and he fell over" is a decent explanation.
Also stating that you were in fear for your own safety goes a long way to justifying using force in a situation.
The police know how difficult a D.S has it, it all mater on how you word your statement along with CCTV footage to back up the justification of the use of force.
They are just doing a job according to the guidelines they have to adhere to so it's important to play ball.
 

Kurt

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#34
In Finland we can reject any potential client at the door (" The outlet has the right to choose their clients " )

You can be removed from the outlet with force if you : are too drunk, causing disturbance, not following the instructions of the staff.

Amount of force, is the amount of force, that it takes to get you removed from the outlet.
( the harder you resist, the harder force is justified )

OC, baton and handcuffs can be used in the process by DS ( security ).
 

Oddjob

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#35
In Finland we can reject any potential client at the door (" The outlet has the right to choose their clients " )

You can be removed from the outlet with force if you : are too drunk, causing disturbance, not following the instructions of the staff.

Amount of force, is the amount of force, that it takes to get you removed from the outlet.
( the harder you resist, the harder force is justified )

OC, baton and handcuffs can be used in the process by DS ( security ).

This is just far too sensible for the UK.
Where the victims can only ever be the public.
It is very rare when removing a drunk, drugged, brainless, psycotic, idiot,
or any of the above that he has come to the club alone.
So addressing one pratt, in reality means to reason with many pratts,
now unless your name is Obamma, Churchill or Mandela holding that attention is a losing battle.
To physically remove one, you must be aware that the pack response has been activated, so vigilance, speed and readiness for action, are all playing on our minds.
10 years ago we ran a trial for a manufacturer on a Body cam built into a vest, with comms and audio/video record.
I wonder if this system would have been of greater assistance to the DS to prove they were just doing their job, by protecting their customers, the reasonable, normal ones.
It might also have stopped the constant swearing between staff at the door, that I find on my travels with my client.
It seems the smaller the DS the more he has to pepper his language with swear words.
To all swearing DS out there (Not you. You Effing idiot)
Stop the swearing, you lose all my respect and I guess a lot of the other punters think you are 1) scared. 2) retarded. 3) a neanderthal.

Sadly a good solicitor is a must for all DS.
Find one, keep there number, and say little or nothing, till a reasoned, WELL WORDED statement can be prepared.
What you say may save you or hang you, so get it right.
 

seb

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#36
Ye...resonable and nacessary ofcourse I will only add:
That you need to have grounds to justify your action than you will be safe !
If You feal threatend and you will need to use pre ampty strike _USE IT ! do not wait for first punch ...because after that first on eyou might be not able to react...BUT RREMEMBER THE ABOVE : YOU will need to answer following |: was that nessesary action ?If you need to use fistst -dont -use open palms -same effect plus you not braking your nuckles plus it will be defenetly looking diffrent if you will talk with police or cctv will be watched.Be resonable but but be safe do not let somebody to hit you first so you can say : HE started ahahah .Its realy funny when you reading somebody who just started on doors and he is giving you all those books based advices...
you can groan me (dont care realy) but I belive that on that post should replay only those who got expirience not newbies who posess badge ...
(not saing that some of my pre writers are newbies its just in general :) ...)
regards
SEB
 

Gorillanobaka1977

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#37
It's obvious to most people, but I wonder if someone from a country without pubs/clubs went into one and was set upon by bouncers (rightly or wrongly) could they potentially sue for assault?

Somebody`s taking the piss here.. A country without pubs ,clubs TV and booze...Where that country might be...???

Amish country maybe???:rolleyes:

That`s a long thread...for nothing...

The answer to the crazee guy`s question is YES...
 

Kurt

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#38
This is just far too sensible for the UK.
Where the victims can only ever be the public.
It is very rare when removing a drunk, drugged, brainless, psycotic, idiot,
or any of the above that he has come to the club alone.
So addressing one pratt, in reality means to reason with many pratts,
now unless your name is Obamma, Churchill or Mandela holding that attention is a losing battle.
To physically remove one, you must be aware that the pack response has been activated, so vigilance, speed and readiness for action, are all playing on our minds.
10 years ago we ran a trial for a manufacturer on a Body cam built into a vest, with comms and audio/video record.
I wonder if this system would have been of greater assistance to the DS to prove they were just doing their job, by protecting their customers, the reasonable, normal ones.
It might also have stopped the constant swearing between staff at the door, that I find on my travels with my client.
It seems the smaller the DS the more he has to pepper his language with swear words.
To all swearing DS out there (Not you. You Effing idiot)
Stop the swearing, you lose all my respect and I guess a lot of the other punters think you are 1) scared. 2) retarded. 3) a neanderthal.

Sadly a good solicitor is a must for all DS.
Find one, keep there number, and say little or nothing, till a reasoned, WELL WORDED statement can be prepared.
What you say may save you or hang you, so get it right.
The pack will think twice when the first punk will get OC in his face and screaming in pain!
This is the part when I ask - " Any other takers? "
Works quite well here in Finland.
 

Oddjob

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#39
The pack will think twice when the first punk will get OC in his face and screaming in pain!
This is the part when I ask - " Any other takers? "
Works quite well here in Finland.
Could you be a good chap, and find me some leaflets on retirement homes.
Who specialise in grouchy, mildly violent, opinionated ex security.
There's a strange appeal developing within me for Finland.
The inmates could tazer each other by way of exercise.:D

dance you mudder Fudder, dance. YEEEHAOW.:p
 
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