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Course aftercare

Haganah2008

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#1
Hi Guys,

I hope this subject has not been covered yet. Otherwise forgive me for the repetition. Am currently looking into some courses and was thinking of the following :

SHOULD THE QUALITY OF A TP NOT BE MEASURED IN THE SO CALLED AFTERCARE?

I mean what's the point doing a course if such a TP does not even conduct interviews or takes on at least one or two of their students or points them into the right direction? Note this is just a thought and I actually do not take sides, just want to see some thoughts from experienced TPs and operators.

This CPW forum is very helpful and mostly constructive thank you all who contribute and helped me already, directly or indirectly.
 

Customloads

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#2
Not all training providers are employers.

And those that are will not want to divulge too much about who they recruited, it would be something of a can of worms.

Personally I would measure a course by...

Value for money - it is no good doing something that costs a fortune but does not improve employability and commanded rates of pay.

Learning efficacy - a week of death by powerpoint is not going to inspire anyone, choose a TP with a reputation for courses that stimulate learning beyond merely passing the assessment.

Recognition of certificate - some employers prefer certain TPs and some will disregard others, a bit of research goes a long way on this criteria.

Networking opportunities - a good course should include time to socialise with the other people on the course and the trainers. Some go out of their way to provide these after the course as well.
 

Haganah2008

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#3
Thank you Curtomloads, Sir!

Anyone else? Someone said G4s maritime do recruit quite a few of their students...

Just want to keep the conversation going ;-)
 

Falklan

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#4
I don't know of a single TP who do recruit based on their attendees.

However, i do know a lot of companies who hold recruiting days to fill their training courses and then never give a job.

And i also know a lot of companies who hire someone based on the idea that they will get in house training and then actually skip it because the speed of business outweighs the time for training.
 

Haganah2008

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#5
Thank you Falklan and Customloads, that is actually quite interesting to know. Basically a scam then, dare I say?!

Ps Sorry for any spelling errors was typing on the phone
 

Falklan

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#6
Well...

There's one company who advertise on here for jobs. They require you attend an open house in Poole.

During that induction chat you get advised of all the extra training you need.

Trauma Course, Shooting Course, MSO Course, Accounting Advise and third party invoicing, Forensic Course.

Each chat takes about an hour and it feels like a pyramid scheme. I've been to it and help conduct it so i know the inside outs.

From the companies perspective their supporting the lads to get compliant so they can be employed. But when you get on a ship you find majority of the lads don't have any of that training.

So you drop a few grand to get in with company. You get maybe a short transit to break even and that's you done.

Just one example... this one is the nicest one. So i would suggest you go with the Cheapest, shortest, easiest course that has the most checks in the box,

However, when it comes to shooting courses, i would be careful who you go with because most managers at most companies are mates with the owner of one specific shooting course.

To training providers, companies and medical course providers you are a walking bank.

And remember, only the british need this, i've helped to recruit US guys with zero specific training except military experience and that was as recent as 1 month ago and they were fine. Just military experience and a passport.
 
Joined
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#7
Well...

There's one company who advertise on here for jobs. They require you attend an open house in Poole.

During that induction chat you get advised of all the extra training you need.

Trauma Course, Shooting Course, MSO Course, Accounting Advise and third party invoicing, Forensic Course.

Each chat takes about an hour and it feels like a pyramid scheme. I've been to it and help conduct it so i know the inside outs.

From the companies perspective their supporting the lads to get compliant so they can be employed. But when you get on a ship you find majority of the lads don't have any of that training.

So you drop a few grand to get in with company. You get maybe a short transit to break even and that's you done.

Just one example... this one is the nicest one. So i would suggest you go with the Cheapest, shortest, easiest course that has the most checks in the box,

However, when it comes to shooting courses, i would be careful who you go with because most managers at most companies are mates with the owner of one specific shooting course.

To training providers, companies and medical course providers you are a walking bank.

And remember, only the british need this, i've helped to recruit US guys with zero specific training except military experience and that was as recent as 1 month ago and they were fine. Just military experience and a passport.

Solace Global by any chance?
 
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#8
And just out of interest Falklan, why is it that us brits have to jump through so many hoops and the yanks don't?

What is the history/intel behind that?
 

Falklan

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#9
And just out of interest Falklan, why is it that us brits have to jump through so many hoops and the yanks don't?

What is the history/intel behind that?
What a million dollar question.

It's all about competition. As companies grew and flag countries evolved and people started looking closer at the issue came a need for compliance.

Also a lot of CSO's for the clients are x-admirals or whatever from the UK. they know the HSE system of compliancy and due diligence. If you find an american CSO then he knows his system and doesn't care for all these city and guilds, edxcel things.

So if you look back to PVI's early days it was only lads doing it with no certs or experience, just had to be x-military and relatively switched on. then as competition grew they started bidding on the contracts.

The guys at solace were born from pvi and when they departed, they took the MSC contract. One of the options was they could offer more for less. After all, its of no cost to the company to make lads do these courses. Then PVI wanted to compete and needed the same and now we have the issue at hand.

This is systemic with english/england. This never ending requirement to be certified or registered or trained at so many things. Even in Iraq or Afghan the brits need mira and sia where the americans don't. Where they win is the secret clearences and the experience in country usually. Brit will do tours but some americans have got years and years in these conflict zones.

The new MSO policy was written by training providers. You have a vicious cycle of costs and expectation brought on by the industry. For some companies, their profit is in training. They bid SO low to get the contract, sometimes running a loss, just to make big profit on courses.

The biggest player in american maritime security have that market locked down. Only former seals and you have to know the right guys to get in. And they work on US flagged vessels. And for americans, they don't care about compliance, they want their seals and they want their guns and thats all that matters.

And then ofcourse you have cheap labour flooding the market from eastern europe and asia who don't have anywhere near the certificates. But on competitive bidding all that matters is the TL, who is in charge, what are his credentials and what is his worth.

When companies open tender for contracts you will find all sorts of bids, gurkhas, fillipino commandos and it's all about the price package. GoAgt have a model of this pricing program on their website.

If for example, a shooting company consult that compliance with section 5 license on UK flag ships require forensic accounting after a shooting incident, then you will find yourself having to attend this extra course. Now the company you're on the books for can claim section 5 compliance even though no one from the home office or MET is going to come on board to investigate the shooting. So the competing companies realise this is a room where they fall short and then 3RG swoop in with some city and guilds course for just this reason. few months go by its industry wide, written in guardcon, home office adapt it for uk vessels and the operator pays the tab.

Just one example.

However, it should be shifting now as the international piracy issue is becoming less UK focused. But then a greek company will hire greeks, so and so forth so you're market share has been reduced and expectations are higher.

The competition is so high at the UK level that there is no end to list of credentials. A uk company will use these credentials to justify cost where a german company can supply guys at a fraction and show shipping companies that their armed guards don't need all that crap that the uk market hyped up.

It's a perfect example of market sare economics. Mcdonalds and burger king working across the road from each other. One day mcdonalds raises its sign so more people can see it, the next day burger king raises theirs. Every day their signs get higher and higher and each day the shop with the highest sign wins. This goes on for weeks until one day a small hotdog vendor opens on the street and takes everyones business. The reason being is the signs got so high no one could see them anymore and the market was ready for a cheap, simple alternative.

And the market is ready for that cheap and simple alternative while you see the UK companies are still raising their sign.
 
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