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CS spray question

mattlock44

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#1
Hi guys i'm looking to take on some key holding as part of our bus., can anyone tell me if i'd be breaking the law by carrying cs spray on a call out.
 

Sabre

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#2
You would definately be breaking the law , as far as i know it comes under sect. 5 (1) b firearms act .
 

billy1000

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#3
Sabre

You're bang on the money, it is covered by the Firearms Act.

So Mattlock44, take our advice, stay clear, otherwise you'll be spending time with HMP.

Billy
 

Pyrene

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#4
What you could do is just simply use Bouncer Spray and aim for the face :p

Im not really clued up on firearms and all that sorta thing, but Niton999 offer a "defensive spray" course. As i said, im not the info king of these sorta courses so i don't know what it entitles you to do
 

K9PrivateSecurity

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#6
ILLEGAL: CS Spray, Baton etc.

LEGAL: Guard Dog / Maglite Torch.

CS Spray V's Ram Raiders consisting of a 4 man gang armed with crowbars, hammers, screwdrivers etc and possibly knives or firearms?

MY advice re: keyholding and alarm response = K-9 UNIT proceeding with caution.
 
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db1

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#7
What you could do is just simply use Bouncer Spray and aim for the face :p

Im not really clued up on firearms and all that sorta thing, but Niton999 offer a "defensive spray" course. As i said, im not the info king of these sorta courses so i don't know what it entitles you to do
Just be aware with the sprays like bouncer spray, dna marker and other similar ones - although some are home office approved and some you have to attend a course beofre you can prchase it - it does depend on what police force as to whether decide to prosecute use or not.

Not getting into the debate if the sprays are legal or not and how the police react is right or not but some forces will react in different ways. Some are totally supportive, some say these sprays come under the firearms act.
 

tapmaster

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#10
Did you consider going to an intervention course? Verbal Judo? Or maybe some defensive tactics course? There are previous threads on CS/CN/ OC etc etc etc use the search bar and you will find all the debates.

In my opinion this is the way of the future.

Tapmaster
 

ronald

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#11
Hi guys i'm looking to take on some key holding as part of our bus., can anyone tell me if i'd be breaking the law by carrying cs spray on a call out.
Yes you will be breaking the law.
Any form of chemical or agressive agent is against UK law.
On call out if it is an alarm situation do not enter the building ,phisical check the outside,if anything is wrong call the Old Bill.Let them enter.
Any Patrol Officer will tell you the same.
You are there to Observe and report.:D
 

mattlock44

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#12
Thanks for the feedback guys, my train of thought was if you do stumble upon a break and enter you may be confronted by the more professional criminal type.
 

Visioneer

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#13
If you come across a 'professional criminal', you're expected to tickle his arse with a feather, not too aggresively though.

INVITE him to accompany you to more suitable surroundings, offer a decaff coffee and therapy.

On no account use pepper spray, CS gas or other aerosol agents. They may severely affect the recipients chances of sucesfully completing the Aroma Therapy Course as part of their rehabilitation.
 
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Scab

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#14
... and some you have to attend a course beofre you can prchase it - it does depend on what police force as to whether decide to prosecute use or not.
Legal definition of a firearm:

"Any weapon of whatever description designed or adapted for the discharge of any noxious liquid, gas or other thing"

A spray to be deemed a firearm would have to meet each point in that definition which quite clearly all available sprays in the UK do not; or they would not be available in the UK!

Though the police can choose to prosecute I'd think it unlikely the CPS would let it get to court and even more unlikely a conviction be secured if it did, on the basis of that single definition alone.

Speaking to a few officers; most think you are more likely to be convicted if you hit them with the bottle (outside of reasonable force) than spraying them with the contents.

Funny thing is sprays which contain alcohol used to spray someone in the face is more likely to fit the definition of a firearm than the available sprays because they do indeed fire a noxious substance which is harmful and by doing so the spray would be deemed an offensive weapon on the definition of an offensive weapon; possibly competing the offence of using a firearm!

Though it's doubted that would stick. Common sense and all.


Only point I don't agree with there is 'having' to do a course to use these things. Unless its provided for in law, you don't 'have' to do anything.
 

Pyrene

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#15
Did you consider going to an intervention course? Verbal Judo? Or maybe some defensive tactics course? There are previous threads on CS/CN/ OC etc etc etc use the search bar and you will find all the debates.

In my opinion this is the way of the future.

Tapmaster
I suggest Krav Maga, very very good, check it out!
 

FredB

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#16
I always used to have a heavy (Maglite) Torch with me since you can't wear arms , sprays and the like, the long heavy version of the torch ;)
If it's a weapon you need , take the one legal weapon with you at all times.
We also used porto's for that :D
(since way back we still used the old heavy portos, i love the old communications devices for that reason)

About Krav Maga , i so want to train more in that , i seen it , some techniques are already familiar to me ,i would love to expand my knowledge and diversity in techniques.
There's no trainers/schools anywhere near here tho :(
 
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Pyrene

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#17
Legal definition of a firearm:

"Any weapon of whatever description designed or adapted for the discharge of any noxious liquid, gas or other thing"

A spray to be deemed a firearm would have to meet each point in that definition which quite clearly all available sprays in the UK do not; or they would not be available in the UK!

Though the police can choose to prosecute I'd think it unlikely the CPS would let it get to court and even more unlikely a conviction be secured if it did, on the basis of that single definition alone.

Speaking to a few officers; most think you are more likely to be convicted if you hit them with the bottle (outside of reasonable force) than spraying them with the contents.

Funny thing is sprays which contain alcohol used to spray someone in the face is more likely to fit the definition of a firearm than the available sprays because they do indeed fire a noxious substance which is harmful and by doing so the spray would be deemed an offensive weapon on the definition of an offensive weapon; possibly competing the offence of using a firearm!

Though it's doubted that would stick. Common sense and all.


Only point I don't agree with there is 'having' to do a course to use these things. Unless its provided for in law, you don't 'have' to do anything.



I think we are forgetting something, 90% of the people we will face don't really know about what can/cannot be inside our cans, most will think CS and step back.

I personally carry bouncer spray (DNA and smells a bit) and a mini waist Powder Fire extinguisher. Now I first thought that to use a fire extinguisher is a bit naughty, so i contacted my local police force who looked into this further....and there is nothing to say you cannot use them..! If you hold it in the correct way - no one can tell its a fire extinguisher.


I feel that quite often, too many security personnel are always to ready to go to guns on someone. Use your brain and asses the situation a bit better. If you spray someone with a powder fire extinguisher they simply go "what the hell" look at them selves...and then you jump them
 

tapmaster

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#18
I always used to have a heavy (Maglite) Torch with me since you can't wear arms , sprays and the like, the long heavy version of the torch ;)
If it's a weapon you need , take the one legal weapon with you at all times.
We also used porto's for that :D
(since way back we still used the old heavy portos, i love the old communications devices for that reason)

About Krav Maga , i so want to train more in that , i seen it , some techniques are already familiar to me ,i would love to expand my knowledge and diversity in techniques.
There's no trainers/schools anywhere near here tho :(
FredB, carrying the heavy MagLite Torch in the long version as you have suggested can easily be perceived as being offensive when you hit someone. As the idea behind the torch is to increase your visibility at night and during times when visibility is reduced. I'm sure you know that.

My advice is don't ever hit someone with a maglite as a GBH would certainly follow.

Best Regards

Tapmaster
 

FredB

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#19
I am aware of that very well :)
But having one with you makes a difference , anything that you can use as a weapon and is being used as one is considered wrong.
For me it's more like having one with you just incase , remember catching someone you have to keep in mind that more often as not they may be armed also and use any violence to keep them from being arrested/ caught.

Incase of a selfdefence against someone assaulting you , you be happy to have something a thand that can be used within reason to defend yourself rather as doing it empty handed against someone with a knife or a stick :)

When i guarded the prison-boat Zaandam being build way back in the middle of the night , aware of possible people climbing over fences / sabotaging stuff , demonstrating etc. not being allowed to wear any kind of weapons/ armor and the like , it's all you have for your safety.
( keep in mind that people usely do not go alone either but in pairs or groups leaving you often alone (or with a scared partner who will probly run as fast as he can to the nearest phone to call for backup) against multiple people)
I have never used such violence in defending myself since i am very good with my mouth and it usely never gets that far i need to use violence for whatever reason.
But if the opertunity arives when i have no choice as to act violently for whatever reason .. i would do whatever to do my job well except running away. :D
 

annie

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#20
and a maglite sodding hurts i dropped mine on my bare foot last week and i have a massive bruise and the language was NOT ladylike
 
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