Door Supervisors or Thugs

H

hammer917

Full Registered User
Hi

I have just left the Military and have just completed my SIA quals to deliver the SIA qualifications.

One thing I have noticed that my students that come on the Door Course just want to bash people and are not concerned with the actually consequences of their actions.

To me this is very disturbing as I do not want to see this on a door and ultimately earn my living from.
It has even come to a point where I have had to physically eject candidates who thought they were the something special.

Having served 11 years in the Army and have only seen this with the Billies, but can be controlled through Agai's extra duties etc....

Why is this exceptable and do current doorman see this as detrimentrial to the industry, and what do current companies do to curb this.



M
 
You are spot on, and until such a time as aptitude and evaluated selection is factored into the SIA requirement, you are going to find that 80% of your candidates are wannabees at best, and psychotic cowards at worst.
They are out there and TPs less conscientious than yourself are churning them out by the bucket full.
I come across them on a daily basis when I'm with my boss out clubbing.
Their behaviour, attitude and lip is unbelieveable, so much so that pulling rank, and explaining the facts of life to them seems all too common place and neccessary.
In the old days sure we had some guys who were men of violence, but in the world and clubs I inhabitted violence was only visited upon those who were violent to us or others.
Our guys didn't have to prove how tough, and in authority they were, you just knew it. A degree of fear was always an element of the task and an expectation of the clubbers, 'misbehave and the wrath of God would fall upon you'.
They weren't scared or didn't feel threatened, which seems to the problem at the moment. and currently they all seem to be bits of kids, still living at home with mummy I guess, with very little life experience. Now unfettered violence or beligerrance seems to come at a whim.
The course, it's requirements, the TPs, all concerned have a responsibility re the DS and CP that they launch onto the market, and the unsuspecting public, to ensure they are suitable and prepared.
So much more to say on this, it's a pet hate, and a pet love as well.
I'll come back later. Sure there will be a lot more to be said on this.
 
oddjob is spot on, as a cp operator I come across ds all the time, some can be very helpful, but a lot are just thugs with licences.
Do the festivals and see the worst sort of behaviour a ds can bestow on a 15 year old whos had too much to drink.
And im sick of ds telling me they have a cro but got round the licensing law.

fbg
 
i myself has been a doorsuperviser for the past 13 years i have worked with many people like this and in other companies that i have worked for have asked people like this to leave because they do not want a bad rep within the security industry.
i now run my own door at a live music venue and i hand pick my men for this reason only.
i have never wanted the fighting side of workin the doors working with me and i never will as long as i have my sia
 
I've never seen DS that have pushed their luck !

Despite frequently visiting some dubious establishments around the country, I can only compliment them on their professionalism. Some members of the industry do have a rep as knuckle dragging gorillas with a short fuse, that have given the rest a bad name, but I can honestly say that i've never come across them.

Even in some of the more disreputable establishments, I've only seen customers treated respectfully, despite in some cases, some extreme provocation.

Fair game to you guys !
 
I have worked the doors for more years than I care to remember and in the last 2 years have seen standard drop severely due to the government sponsoring lazy arseholes to do the course or lose benefits.They think working the doors is an easy job option but we professionals know differently.
The cream always rises to the top and the bad apples are always caught out eventually, its just a shame they give us professionals a bad name.
As OJ states an aptitude test and valuation tests should be the norm and would help filter out the cowards /thugs and jacket fillers which make our job more dangerous than it should be and hazardous for the punters they should be looking after.

NASH..
 
NASH and OJ good comments and i agree, i would like to add that when i started door work 18yrs ago (not as long as some NASH lol) I found that if new starters like myself at the time started working the door with an established door team all of whom had been priviously put through the paces by a very experienced Head doorman, types of door staff had found their preferred role, ( front door, dance floor, car park etc), it takes a evaluation period to find out if someone is good with their people skills or they are only any good when it all kicks off. Someone who does not have the skills was always rotated out and they simply did not find work.

What i would like to see, as i cannot see the SIA changing the current system of training and license requirements, why not have a probation period with larger night clubs or specialist venues which could be registered as a "school" which new door staff would work at these venues under experienced door staff etc and then over 6 months be monitored, moved round certain roles within said venue under the wing of professional, experienced door staff, then after 6 months they get a tick in the box, or not.

Something has to be done, as stated the last couple of years have seen an increase of people coming through job seakers etc and they just dont cut it and never will.

Not saying im totally right in the probation period and good doors around the country which are run by proffessional Door staff are no doubt doing this anyway (in an old school way), doors which are run like this generally get a good amount of people wanting to be part of a good strong Team and work within an environment where the Door team are known for being proffessional, capable, courteous, fair, controlled and responsible.

Another item i would like addressed is PAY, clubs and bars which have the experienced Head doorstaff working at their venue should be willing to pay better rates of pay to these people who do on a regular basis mostly stop trouble in its tracks, but if it does kick off take care of it in a way so as to not cause club or bar licensee to be worried about their license being revoked, also knowing how to help police with statements, running correct log books for statements etc all help with the proffessional manner the venues door is run and be seen to run by customers, police, paramedics etc also.

Sadly i know of too many venues where decent door staff are only getting paid £10 an hour, i then get night club owners, publicans etc who want the high end service of a strong experienced door team but dont want to pay more than £12 an hour (to the company!), its absolutly ridiculous the attitude of some people! sadly while these people only want to pay for jacket fillers, then im sure there are many companies which will be happy to supply them with that.

I have recently priced up for new doors where they want certain trouble stopped as they are feeling preasure from police and council as they may get their license revoked if they dont sort things out, i priced one door £26 an hour for a head doorman, £18 an hour for 5 other top door staff which would be needed to sort the door out, did i get the door, no, did i expect to get the door, no. will they sort out their door with the jacket fillers they have now got for £10 an hour, no. Do i care NO, THEY CAN RUDDY WELL GET ON WITH IT!!!!

Thats me done, great thread started, got a responce from me at least lol:D:D:D

Regards, STP.
 
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You're right S.T.P, great thread started. Going to get some interesting stuff crop up.

A vetting system or something S.T.P just suggested is a good idea. But STP your idea is sadly flawed its too complicated and time consuming for any government body to care about. For the gov its more about employment rates etc, they don't know anything else. I am sure they are aware theres trouble makers in frontline SIA jobs, but not the scale we all know. Maybe theres something we can do as a group of professional security personal to bring this to their attention. If they do do any action - it will no doubt bump up the SIA license cost.

Maybe we can create a black list sort of thing (would have to be heavily regulated though!) Where if we work with someone who is not appropriate or professional, they just want to get their hands dirty, they get put up on this list. And employers, if they wish, can go on it have a little read and see why they are on it. At the end of the day its these "thugs" who put the bad stamp on the security industry. And im sure some employers prefer not to have these thugs on the doors because they will give their pub/club a bad name.

I've known plenty of people who say "oh we're not going there, their doorman is a dick" and that doorstaff was there only one day.

Its far too early in the morning for me to write something organised and structured that makes sense, so I apologise if this is all just a mer ramble to all you guys and gals out there :)
 
hammer917 said:
Hi

I have just left the Military and have just completed my SIA quals to deliver the SIA qualifications.

One thing I have noticed that my students that come on the Door Course just want to bash people and are not concerned with the actually consequences of their actions.

To me this is very disturbing as I do not want to see this on a door and ultimately earn my living from.
It has even come to a point where I have had to physically eject candidates who thought they were the something special.
Having served 11 years in the Army and have only seen this with the Billies, but can be controlled through Agai's extra duties etc....

Why is this exceptable and do current doorman see this as detrimentrial to the industry, and what do current companies do to curb this.



M
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As a soon-to-be EX-DS I can only agree with the observations already made. I used to love this job, even though working some right dodgy dives, and even met the better half while working the door. However, I have become disillusioned by the quality of DS coming onto the job. I know i'm generalising, but they all seem to be steroid-soaked wannabes that just want to throw their weight about, usually picking on the guy who gets sand kicked in his face by three year olds, who's just out for a good night. Inevitably, when the s**t really hits the fan, they're always on toilet checks or a fag break. Let alone trusting them to watch my back, I wouldn't trust half of them with a lollipop at a kid's school crossing (no insult to lollipop-people, who are probably better motivated!). So that's it, I wont renew my DS badge in August. IMHO, the SIA was the WORST thing to happen to the security industry in general, I think the local council ran the door badge schemes better than this bunch of not-suitable-for-purpose prats.End of rant, Trojan listening out
 
When I did my DS course a few months ago there was a guy who you could tell just wanted a license to batter people. He actually said to me that he doesn't consider it a good night out unless he gets to 'kick sumb'daes heed in'. There was only one out of a class of about 20. Everyone else seemed to have their head screwed on right. The majority were ex mil or in the case of myself people with martial arts experience who were looking for a bit of extra work.

I'm now in a working band so I get to meet a hell of a lot of DS. The vast majority are sound guys and have on many occasions been incredibly helpful. One supervisor even 'loaned' us one of his doormen to supervise the loading of our equipment since it was a dodgy area with many a thieving jakeball roaming the street. The worst I've encountered are a couple of guys who work at what shall remain an un-named venue in Edinburgh who get a laugh out of messing with the clientèle. Repeatedly checking our ID's and access passes even though we're all very clearly above 18 or even 25. And that's the worst I've ever encountered and that's only a mild pain in the backside.

On the whole my experience of DS has been overwhelmingly positive which is partially why I decided to start working doors myself.

Anyway rant over.
 
Doormen still have a bad reputation although thanks to the SIA things are changing slowly, seeing a gorilla on the door is some what off putting to the customers scaring alot of trade away. The new approach of keeping smart presentable persons up front is winning customs however when the s--- hits the fan gorillas are needed, how do you train a gorilla?

As I`m sure your aware that under current legislation no one can hold an SIA badge with any history of unprovoked violence.

Alot of the young one think it`s money for old rope, but thats not the case anymore. Good luck with the trainnig program after all it`s your job to filter them out.
 
I thought i would have a say now ive been workin on the doors for a bit and i agree with everything thats being said iv worked at a few different venues and in some the door staff really didnt have a clue. (especially those in wakefield working for Protex).. there are a few decent guys working there but there are the ones that want to just jump in fists first, even if its just a couple of blokes having a bit too much of a laugh.
as for drug enduced nutters .. AGREED. if there not usin T5's to stay awake the guys are on gear to "bulk up" ffs i spent 8 yrs in the army and bulked up the old fashion way.. plenty of protiens followed by marriage pmsl.
 
SIABOSS said:
Doormen still have a bad reputation although thanks to the SIA things are changing slowly,
Click to expand...


Sorry ???????????????????????????????????????????

No the SIA vet people who have a previous record or no record of any offenses, that doesnt mean that the SIA are responsible for upping the standards. That as you say is down to the guys and girls who are professional and experienced and keeping standards high on the doors, also Companies out there whom also wish to keep standards high by employing persons who are able to work to set standards, anyone else the SIA license and put out there who are not fit for purpose for the doors will eventually get into security guard positions and event security.

SIABOSS??????????? Dont say they have put a representative from the SIA on this forum!!!!!!!!Thats very brave lol.:D:D:p.

Not that im against a representative from the SIA on here, if that would be the case i would be greatly looking forward in reading any posts they wished to comment on and as im sure many others on the forum would too, after all what better way could the SIA hope to get an understanding of what people who they license think about the industry and how working together could make the industry better.

Regards, STP.
 
As I`m sure your aware that under current legislation no one can hold an SIA badge with any history of unprovoked violence.
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Read the "minded to refuse" posts and then come back and tell me the same ^^ Its a crock of sh1t !! most of the arseholes coming into the business are benefit scammers and jacket fillers,please tell me different ! "in my humble opinion"

NASH..
 
S.T.P said:
No the SIA vet people who have a previous record or no record of any offenses, that doesnt mean that the SIA are responsible for upping the standards. That as you say is down to the guys and girls who are professional and experienced and keeping standards high on the doors, also Companies out there whom also wish to keep standards high by employing persons who are able to work to set standards.
Click to expand...
It was part of the purpose behind the PSIA and the setting up of the SIA that they should improve standards by enforcing training on everyone as well as criminal records checks. As for companies setting the standards, unfortunately, as has been mentioned, the good companies get undercut by the bad ones, so that just doesn't work.
 
In my opinion a reasonable person doesn't like violence. Or at least works it off in a controlled environment... The gym/ring etc.

Yes there are a group of individuals (contradiction? ;) ) around who will spend everyday on the sunbeds. Down the gym and chucking god knows what into themselves in order to be aesthetically pleasing to the opposite sex with the pure intention of how much fun can be had... The others as stated above wish to create hassle by making themselves look good at the cost of others.
Inevitably they end up in venues with larger teams purely because they can't be trusted to look after themselves properly in small venues and would put the other DS at risk.

There are also a group of DS, and i'm happy to say in Cardiff these are the majority, that approach it as a job and nothing personal, enjoy the evening give a service and for the most part turn the other cheek to off the cuff comments and idiots. However, if something happens you can be damn sure they will watch your back and not be the cause of the problem.

I've worked my share of Swansea and Cardiff, and when I ask for someone to be sent up to cover or for special events it tends to be by name as I either know them directly, or through recommendation from friends on other venues.

It's not just up to the Training Providers to give the DS-to-be the tools to do the job. It's down to the first team he works with. I was lucky, I went into a decent venue in Swansea (yes there are some ;)) and I was paired up with one of the more experienced guys, I watched how various issues were dealt with, and from there, the role changed so I was doing and being fed back to on how I had handled it - something I think needs to be done more often. Major rule I learnt and fully agreed with (and still do) - a lot more can be achieved by talking to someone than by fighting them. Granted, a lot of drunks will slow down a bit and listen to reason just because i've got the size advantage on them :rolleyes: but if their thinking then again, there is a good chance of them leaving under own steam and minimum distruption to rest of venue.
While off duty - I watched a group of three doorman shake a guy from drunken slumber in a corner and immediately drag him out the fire exit and come back in looking quite smug as if they had actually achieved something , I had to think about how long they'd last if I'd run that door!!
 
I worked the pre SIA doors prior to joining the Prison Service in 2002 as a way of earning a well needed secondary income when my children were young! The venues were heaving and as a rule the calibre of staff was excellent although you always got a few nobbers as it is with any profession. I do agree that standards have dropped but wonder if this is due to a catch 22 situation caused by £3.50 pints, the smoking ban and wages unable to even begin to compete with inflation ( I was earning £10 per hour as a Head Doorman in 2001!).
 
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