DS cracking RST!

mmorg3053

Longterm Registered User
Have I said ANYONE is not up to the job? Yet we have another individual taking it personally. I dont care if you can do the job. I dont care if you are better than Tom, Dick and Harry at doing the job. But given the current guidelines and legislation regarding Close Protection (this is CP World is it not?), then whether we like it or not there is a governing body called the SIA.

That being said, with our hands tied by the SIA on licensing, the pre-requisite for an RST on a CP task should be that all members of the team are CP licensed. I am not going to repeat the reasons why, because I have already stated the reasons over and over in my past few posts.

Why is it that it is only DS who are taking this as a direct dig at them? I am not interested in personal circumstances or how good you say you are. I am talking about current legislation in CP, which stupidly allows DS to do RST (which I consider part of CP) work. And I have given my reasons why I think this should not be the case.
 

rhea

Longterm Registered User
Yet we have another individual taking it personally.
Not at all. Something else you are wrong about and by using "we" are you thinking you are more than one person?


But given the current guidelines and legislation regarding Close Protection (this is CP World is it not?), then whether we like it or not there is a governing body called the SIA.
Why should I or my employer be concerned about that? And do read the home page of CPW as it explains that this forum covers all aspects of security, including those that do not need a Licence at all.



That being said, with our hands tied by the SIA on licensing, the pre-requisite for an RST on a CP task should be that all members of the team are CP licensed.
Again the dual personality. :confused: My hands are not tied at all.
"should" indicates your opinion only.....But which one of you?????
 

mmorg3053

Longterm Registered User
A clear attempt at taking the point in question and completely disregarding it. Completely irrelevant comments there rhea.

Let me go back to what I previously asked the other members. "Hypothetically".

You are a DS badged individual conducting RST on a task within the UK.. The BG goes man-down mid task and the TL comes to you to ask if you can take over for the day or a couple of days, allowing the BG to recover. There are no "what if's" or "but's" or any other circumstance and no one else is available. Are you allowed to do this as a DS?

I cant make my point any simpler, but yet it is being completely avoided.
 

littlewoman

Longterm Registered User
You are just proving my point to be even more relevant. There is no point saying "i can do RST if it is a, b, c but not x, y, z". Fact of the matter is as proven here, RST should be CP qualified, irrespective of an SG or DS capability to do the job.

If I had to look at a load of CV'S for an RST role then I would make sure that all the necessary qualifications in licensing were there first and foremost. Then I would sift the qualifying CV's for individuals who I feel would suit the role. Then some form of interviews would take place before finally picking the team.
Firstly, I'm not saying what I can and can't do, this is not about me personally. Actually I have a very varied skill set and range of experience. Secondly, surely you pick the people to suit the team you have, some people will be more suited than others for certain tasks. Some people can not work as individuals and need a team, some are happy to work alone. If you apply a blanket requirement for skills in every single role then you won't have a very varied team, with suitably varied skills. The smaller the team is the more you need for people to be able to do each other's job. With a larger team you can have more scope to have a varied skill set, with varied experience.
If you want to look at licence first then that is your prerogative for your business. Others will only employ ex-military or only their old regiment, that is their business model. What works for you is up to you but that doesn't mean its the way everyone wants to do things and that doesn't mean its the best way to do things.

You might not like it that the SIA allows RST on less than a CP licence but that is the current law. I don't like it that shops can employ their own security with no training, licence or even criminal records check, but that's the way things are. Other companies might have other policies for dealing with situations like needing cover for the CP role, as I've said pull someone in from another shift or have enough CP badges on the RST that someone will always be available.

Do you also decide that because the site has CCTV, you'll make sure everyone also has a CCTV licence?
 

rhea

Longterm Registered User
The BG goes man-down mid task and the TL comes to you to ask if you can take over for the day or a couple of days, allowing the BG to recover. There are no "what if's" or "but's" or any other circumstance and no one else is available. Are you allowed to do this as a DS?
Surely a good TL wouldn't ask a DS to put themselves in that sort of situation in the first place.? And as for the contingency planning??????

Might be worth spending £500 on a course if that is the standard of TL's out there;)
 

mmorg3053

Longterm Registered User
Surely a good TL wouldn't ask a DS to put themselves in that sort of situation in the first place.? And as for the contingency planning??????

Might be worth spending £500 on a course if that is the standard of TL's out there;)

I see you refuse to give a simple answer to a simple question, which you and I both know the answer to. How difficult is it to say "No, I would not be allowed"? Is it really that difficult to admit it?

Which takes me back to the reason why I will always believe that an individual on RST should be CP licensed in order to step up, if necessary, at a moments notice.
 

mmorg3053

Longterm Registered User
Firstly, I'm not saying what I can and can't do, this is not about me personally. Actually I have a very varied skill set and range of experience. Secondly, surely you pick the people to suit the team you have, some people will be more suited than others for certain tasks. Some people can not work as individuals and need a team, some are happy to work alone. If you apply a blanket requirement for skills in every single role then you won't have a very varied team, with suitably varied skills. The smaller the team is the more you need for people to be able to do each other's job. With a larger team you can have more scope to have a varied skill set, with varied experience.
If you want to look at licence first then that is your prerogative for your business. Others will only employ ex-military or only their old regiment, that is their business model. What works for you is up to you but that doesn't mean its the way everyone wants to do things and that doesn't mean its the best way to do things.

You might not like it that the SIA allows RST on less than a CP licence but that is the current law. I don't like it that shops can employ their own security with no training, licence or even criminal records check, but that's the way things are. Other companies might have other policies for dealing with situations like needing cover for the CP role, as I've said pull someone in from another shift or have enough CP badges on the RST that someone will always be available.

Do you also decide that because the site has CCTV, you'll make sure everyone also has a CCTV licence?

In the real world these contingencies might not be available. Like I previously said, disregard the "what if's" or "buts" or "surely you can do this". I am trying to keep it simple.

And CCTV license is for Public Space Surveillance is it not? So no, I would not be asking a CP qualified member of an RST to have his CCTV license as it is completely irrelevant to this discussion.
 

rhea

Longterm Registered User
I see you refuse to give a simple answer to a simple question, which you and I both know the answer to. How difficult is it to say "No, I would not be allowed"? Is it really that difficult to admit it?

Which takes me back to the reason why I will always believe that an individual on RST should be CP licensed in order to step up, if necessary, at a moments notice.
But I am allowed and I have done it.:)

Do you also make sure everyone has a C&G in food prep just in case the chef is off sick and the boss is hungry;)
 

mmorg3053

Longterm Registered User
rhea, we both know that a DS is not allowed to undertake CP tasks. Given the circumstance I described on numerous occasions, if a DS did undertakes said task then he and the security company would be liable for prosecution.

I await the "its only illegal if you get caught" response......
 

rhea

Longterm Registered User
rhea, we both know that a DS is not allowed to undertake CP tasks. Given the circumstance I described on numerous occasions, if a DS did undertakes said task then he and the security company would be liable for prosecution.

I await the "its only illegal if you get caught" response......

You will have to wait for ever for that response from me I am afraid. Always stay within the law I say.
 

marshy41

Longterm Registered User
I see where your coming from, but I also have to say that there are many RST's running out there that do not have a Residential Team and a CP Team. And you can turn around and say that they should, but real world is that they don't, and that is just the way it is. It is all down to money, just because the principle has maybe a billion pounds doesn't mean he is willing to pay for a CPT and an RST.

I think from the outset of this post that is where it was pointed to. Hence why DS get employed. Its been said already, there are good and bad from both CP & DS. We have all worked with many from both military/police and plain old civilian's and from all there are complete morons and top people.

Also daily rates have dropped as again we are all aware of, £100-120 per day is about the norm, yes granted there are ones running that do pay much more, so that is also a factor.

Doing a reputable CP course really will not transform that individual, they may gain extra knowledge, but unless they have some sound experience in the industry then they will not be brought onto a team at the drop of a hat.

I'm slightly digressing, but its just the same in the HE world, I watch some TL's / DTL's and operators work and I wonder how the hell they actually got there jobs, and 95% of them are ex military, so its across all sectors.

Its an interesting thread and one that has grabbed some attention from across the board, as I said at the end of an earlier post, will this change, I say no can't really see it, so maybe look at if a DS is put on your shift, you mentor him or mould him so he sings off the same song sheet as the rest of the guys in the team. We all learn off each other in this game.
 
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littlewoman

Longterm Registered User
In the real world these contingencies might not be available. Like I previously said, disregard the "what if's" or "buts" or "surely you can do this". I am trying to keep it simple.

And CCTV license is for Public Space Surveillance is it not? So no, I would not be asking a CP qualified member of an RST to have his CCTV license as it is completely irrelevant to this discussion.
In the real world you need a team that is the best people for the job they are doing with an overlap in skills so that each person can step in and do the job of at least one other member of the team. As I have said but you are trying to ignore, if the team is small enough you may need all CP people on the RST rather than just some but if its that small you'd be leaving the residence without protection so you wouldn't be doing your job properly. If you haven't built in suitable contingencies then you are not doing your job properly as a CP TL.

The CCTV licence is needed anywhere you're watching members of the public. So if your CCTV covers some area outside the perimeter then you are on dodgy grounds having someone watching it without a CCTV licence. If you have a problem with an individual who is obviously doing a recce of the site and call the police, someone is going to have to stand up in court and say they got the CCTV evidence and if they don't have a suitable licence a solicitor is going to have great fun.

How many teams that have a female needing protection will have more than one female on each shift in case they are needed to step in. How many teams with children needing protection will have more than one person trained in paediatric first aid? There are lots of skills that are needed, most of them not covered (or adequately covered) on a CP course.

As to the earlier question, can a DS step in in an emergency, yes they can. As long as it is not part of their normal job spec, just as the barman at a pub can help with an ejection if needed.
 

mmorg3053

Longterm Registered User
Lol ok. I feel this is going nowhere. I havent even broached on the subject of CPTL responsibilities and contingency planning as that is an entirely different discussion with even more variables than I can be bothered writing about.

I am trying to keep it down to the bare basics without bringing in all the horse radish about CPTL this, and overlap in skills that, and "what if this". But no matter how much I try to do this, there is an answer regarding "Oh but the CP TL should be doing this and he is not doing his job properly".

Like I say, the simple answer without buttering it up with other circumstance is that a DS licensed RST can not legally step up to do CP if required (in the UK).

So I will leave this post in saying that that is my reason why I believe all members of a CPT including RST should hold a CP license. If people want to be involved in a CP role, including RST, go out and do a CP course and get licensed, instead of playing at it.
 

rhea

Longterm Registered User
I am trying to keep it down to the bare basics without bringing in all the horse radish about CPTL this, and overlap in skills that, .
Really???????
.....and the TL comes to you to ask if you can take over for the day or a couple of days, allowing the BG to recover.



Like I say, the simple answer without buttering it up with other circumstance is that a DS licensed RST can not legally step up to do CP if required (in the UK).
Don't know where you did your 138 hours course but I think maybe you missed the bit regarding legislation and who it applies to......Keep up at the back;)
 

marshy41

Longterm Registered User
Lol ok. I feel this is going nowhere. I havent even broached on the subject of CPTL responsibilities and contingency planning as that is an entirely different discussion with even more variables than I can be bothered writing about.

I am trying to keep it down to the bare basics without bringing in all the horse radish about CPTL this, and overlap in skills that, and "what if this". But no matter how much I try to do this, there is an answer regarding "Oh but the CP TL should be doing this and he is not doing his job properly".

Like I say, the simple answer without buttering it up with other circumstance is that a DS licensed RST can not legally step up to do CP if required (in the UK).

So I will leave this post in saying that that is my reason why I believe all members of a CPT including RST should hold a CP license. If people want to be involved in a CP role, including RST, go out and do a CP course and get licensed, instead of playing at it.

Well the last RST number I was part of was in no way shape or form of CP, it was nothing more than static guarding, not all RST jobs have a CP Team, not all principles what that, its not a case of you breaching the subject of the CPTL etc, you have worked on a very professional set up that has both CPT and RST, as i said earlier lots today do not have both, theres a RST job going at the moment, doesn't mention CP at all, hence the salary, and its again on an estate, so more of a guarding job.

And as I did say in one of my earlier posts, the client will know exactly what type of team is required, and also money is a big factor to. As you and all of us know clients/principles what teams as cheap as possible and at any cost.
 

colonel45155

Longterm Registered User
Don't feed the trolls ;) I bowed out yesterday, the guy has a superiority complex fed by his plastic badge. Even said "if he had me on his team" as if that would happen.

Leave him alone and he will go away.

I did like the "james bond from Herefordshire" line he said, I'm gonna use that someday lol.
 
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mmorg3053

Longterm Registered User
Don't feed the trolls ;) I bowed out yesterday, the guy has a superiority complex fed by his plastic badge. Even said "if he had me on his team" as if that would happen.

Leave him alone and he will go away.

I did like the "james bond from Herefordshire" line he said, I'm gonna use that someday lol.

Haha, clearly the type to draw conclusions. Spare me the "as if that would happen". Firstly, you are correct in saying that I wouldn't have a DS on my team.

Secondly, I have heard that comment from blokes so many times but they soon change their mind when presented with a well paid job.

Sounds exactly like the "oh I wouldn't get out of bed for that", but I then see dozens of these exact same blokes applying for the jobs because they are on their arse.
 

TMAC

Longterm Registered User
Must be great to have all the answers and be right every time you open your mouth.?
Your superior attitude is not winning you any friends here.
Not everyone has the luxury of working with well funded, money no object teams and picking and choosing their tasks, unlike your good self of course!
I think at this point this thread is done to death, let it die in peace.


Sent from my iPhone using Close Protection World
 

colonel45155

Longterm Registered User
MONG said:
Haha, clearly the type to draw conclusions. Spare me the "as if that would happen". Firstly, you are correct in saying that I wouldn't have a DS on my team.

Secondly, I have heard that comment from blokes so many times but they soon change their mind when presented with a well paid job.

Sounds exactly like the "oh I wouldn't get out of bed for that", but I then see dozens of these exact same blokes applying for the jobs because they are on their arse.

You are just showing your true colours now. I personally would not work with you. You are so far up your arse you'll choke on your own head.

Maybe in a few years your attitude will adjust, until then leave the God complex alone. You never know, maybe someday a lowly DS just might have to have your back.

Feel free to crawl back under whatever self indulgent rock you came from. You're not RMP here snowflake.
 
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