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If bouncers and have a go heroes are allowed to protect, R people allowed to...

confusion

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#2
yes as long as any force used is reasonable dependant on the circumstances, although this is a grey area as to what constitutes reasonable. As a general rule of thumb do not get involved unless you have no other option
 

Nephilim

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#3
Everyone has a power under common law to protect themselves, another and their property from harm, in order to do so you can use whatever force is reasonable in the circumstances, stated case law says this includes the use of a pre emptive strike (you do not need to wait to be assaulted first). However any force used must be resonable, you may use lethal force to protect yourself or another and not face charge (you may well still be arrested for a thorough investigation of the facts). Just recently a shop keeper was not charged when he killed a violent robber during an attack, several years ago a homeowner was charged when he broke the neck of a burglar - he chased him out of the house and down the road before finally catching him and killing him. Everything has to be in proportion and necessary as judged by "a reasonable man" knowing the facts at the time - not the fatcs known afterwards. Therefore a police officer that shoots an armed robber, armed with a table leg in a bag is not prosecuted because the fact it is a table leg and not a gun isn't known at the material time.
Hope this helps

Nephilim
 

Shortty

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#4
...defend own family? And property without being arrested in England?
Unlikely, as you have said without being arrested. Yes you have a right to protect yourself and your property, and also a right to protect others, but it's a minefield. It is likely if your actions were very very mild, and the consequences were minor that the police wouldn't arrest - but as soon as your seeing any kind of injury caused, or the slightest doubt over the reasonableness of the force used, then you're looking at being arrested. The more serious the injuries and/or the more doubt over the issue of reasonable force, then the further it is going to go through the courts system - right through to a final appeal against a conviction in the house of lords!

Short answer, there is no hard and fast rule, many many things will influence the decision, as mentioned by nephilim and confusion.

Key note, most bouncers aren't working under the right to protect others when they get physical, they are using the licensing laws that enforce them as deputees of the licencee to use reasonable force to effect the eviction of undesireables, and then if that person becomes violent towards them, then they are using the common law right to self protection.

Shortty
 

zatoichi

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#5
You got to remember the law is an ass and it is enforced by ass#oles, ie The CPS not the police anymore. Although i respect the police officers on the street their views and discretion has been overuled. Now days some idoit CPS lawyer will decided if you go to court or not, remember that if you are pretty useless as a solicitor you will be snapped up by the CPS. So in answer to the question can i defend myself, well you will have to not just at the incident but in a courtroom.
 

annie

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#6
lawyers are just following the rules laid out by the courts and previous cases, they just do a job the same as anyone else. You may not like it and it may seem unfair but everyone has the right to be defended in court no matter what. The law is the law and we may not like it sometimes and it may seem very biased towards the rights of the criminals but in this country you are innocent until proven guilty no matter what you do.
 

zatoichi

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#7
lawyers are just following the rules laid out by the courts and previous cases, they just do a job the same as anyone else. You may not like it and it may seem unfair but everyone has the right to be defended in court no matter what. The law is the law and we may not like it sometimes and it may seem very biased towards the rights of the criminals but in this country you are innocent until proven guilty no matter what you do.
I doubt you work in the police, in fact i reckon you work in the CPS with that view. I have to respect your view of course but wish to say that the above is not correct in my experience.
 

annie

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#8
I am CP actually and do door work, but yes i am training to be a lawyer, i didn't say i agree with it, and the law is a bloody ass everyone can see that. It's just a fact that the way the stupid law works in this country you are innocent until proven guilty. I wouldnt be a defence lawyer for any money offered, as the idea of trying to get someone off that you know is guilty would kill me. The law sadly is antiquated in the UK, it almost works in favour of many criminals, and most of them know that.

What i was saying is the fact is lawyers can only work within the boundaries that are set, and it is just a job, just as door work is or CP. It isn't a fair system, and until someone kicks it up the arse and brings it up to date to ensure that punishment is punishment then it never will be. It isn't LA Law and it isn't Boston Legal, but no matter what the system does in this country give everyone the rights to have representation. Doesn't mean tht the lawyers agree with the law, we work to rules like everyone else is all.
 

Gobbo

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#9
Remember,fellas(and ladies) Never take a sledge hammer to crack a nut! In otherwords.....you can protect yourself if you really believe they were going to twat you or someone else first!
Gobbo
 
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#10
It is harsh that what happens in the harsh toxic corrosive environment of an altercation is judged 6 months later in the cool sterility of a courtroom, when the adrenaline has subsided, but that's the way it is. You will probably get arrested but that is better than lying in the graveyard. Everything you do has to be proportionate, lawful and necessary, but in my experience it is difficult to think of these things when some malcontent is trying to rip your face off, and your mid-brain takes over.
 

Gobbo

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#11
Remember then.....................twat em as hard as you can and make sure they are down! And stay down! Hahahahahahahaha
 

RocketDodger

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#13
Unlikely, as you have said without being arrested. Yes you have a right to protect yourself and your property, and also a right to protect others, but it's a minefield. It is likely if your actions were very very mild, and the consequences were minor that the police wouldn't arrest - but as soon as your seeing any kind of injury caused, or the slightest doubt over the reasonableness of the force used, then you're looking at being arrested. The more serious the injuries and/or the more doubt over the issue of reasonable force, then the further it is going to go through the courts system - right through to a final appeal against a conviction in the house of lords!

Short answer, there is no hard and fast rule, many many things will influence the decision, as mentioned by nephilim and confusion.

Key note, most bouncers aren't working under the right to protect others when they get physical, they are using the licensing laws that enforce them as deputees of the licencee to use reasonable force to effect the eviction of undesireables, and then if that person becomes violent towards them, then they are using the common law right to self protection.

Shortty
An excellent point. It would be very unwise for a security opertive working a door to confuse the two especially in any subsequent explanation to the police!!!
 

kenpsd

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#14
It is harsh that what happens in the harsh toxic corrosive environment of an altercation is judged 6 months later in the cool sterility of a courtroom, when the adrenaline has subsided, but that's the way it is. You will probably get arrested but that is better than lying in the graveyard. Everything you do has to be proportionate, lawful and necessary, but in my experience it is difficult to think of these things when some malcontent is trying to rip your face off, and your mid-brain takes over.
What a great post....."The harsh toxic corrosive environment of an altercation":eek: you must be a lawyer?......do you mean a 'punch up'?:D
 

shakespeare

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#15
Depends on location in my honest opinion.

In the UK:

"Use appropiate force deemed necessary to neutralise the threat, stop when the threat has ceased."

The second part is what most people have a problem with and ends up in court.

Or overseas:

"Spread brass 360 whilst looking cool as f*ck throughout, only stopping to reload or to start the camera rolling"

The second part is what most people have a problem with, and ends up with a shakey blurred picture and bad sound quality.
 

Scab

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#16
Yes, you would probably be arrested having used any force whatsoever. Then you claim it as your defence that the force was used in self defence/protection of your property.

Thats how the law (Offences Against the Person Act) is worded and how it always has been; the police only starting making the arrests for those unfortunate enough to have to defend themselves to get the ticks in the boxes for New-Labours wonderful "get the statistics or lose money" idea, in my humble opinion.
 

Miles Overton

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#17
There are so many grey areas in this is because many people just simply find it easier to be a victim and them blame the police for turning up 30 mins late. Fact is the police cant be everywhere at once so to truly be safe one has to take a part in and build a safe community, not depend on the police! My personal views are if I see someone in trouble i will get involved, I know who my local residents are and if someone breaks into my property I wont hesitate to open a can of WOOPASS on them! But I wont shoot them in the back as they are running away with an illegal unregistered shotgun!
 
M

mickworldwide

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#18
Some great points brought out folks and great to see so many of us that have actually bothered to look at the legislation and understand it.

In my answer to the original question... Yes you most likely will be arrested, the right to defend oneself , property, vulnerable person, use reasonable force etc (yes I am aware that one is CLA as opposed to statutory defenses to assault before someone who swallowed a law book jumps in!!) these are defenses usually in front of a court unfortunately , so the fact is that you will have to wait til the report is compiled, passed to the CPS who will (hopefully) make the decision that you acted within those laws and as such should not be prosecuted, if not then it is down to your Barrister / Jury/ Magistrate to hopefully see sense.

I was a copper for a while and it is difficult to see the wood for the trees sometimes , especially if you turn up and some geexer has been lumped by a bloody great big doorman , with neery a scratch upon him and the guy is looking like a potential 'winner of the sorry contest' ... The police have discretionary powers and often they use them in support of Ds , ES etc... but often it is impossible to do as in the above case there may appear to be excessive force used.
Also to go strictly by the book , and remember some cops do .... a police constable may arrest any person committing an act of common assault in his view.... so beware , a common assault can be almost anything.
It is a sign of the times unfortunately where anyone and everyone wants to make claims , complaints against the people out there trying to keep them and others safe .... tread carefully as Coppers are now covering their own ass as much as possible to avoid all sorts of allegations of wrongdoing and corruption ...
 

VICTORMACE

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#19
Always be proportionate in your actions against an aggressor or aggressors, but always remember the line " I feared for my life your honour " !!!!
 

Miles Overton

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#20
best thing for all of this is to learn a combatative system or martialart that is leathal but also practises control. i train in jujitsu and have done for 4 years. i know i can controle a large groupe without any striking moves which keeps me on the right side of the law!
 
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