Is being ex-forces the be all and end all in this industry now?

I understand what your saying Toby, but these guys and girls do have things that civi's cant offer mate, its simple as that. You say that you wouldnt consider going to a hostile enviroment?.......well, that says a lot, how can you say that as a CPO? Think about another job mate.
 
I understand what your saying Toby, but these guys and girls do have things that civi's cant offer mate, its simple as that. You say that you wouldnt consider going to a hostile enviroment?.......well, that says a lot, how can you say that as a CPO? Think about another job mate.

I say that Gary as I don't have the training or experience to not be a potential risk to my team, principal/s or self in a hostile environment...
 
Toby, Hostile enviroment is not the be all and end all. Don't be disheartened it is not all about ex mil. It will then be ex SF or Airborne. Then must be badged not attached.
I had a senior NCO SF instructor with 10 years SF service referred to as a "craphat" (behind his back) by a 20 year old private from Airborne. Shows the mentality

Ex Mil covers a large number of skills. "you know how they will react" Does a cook or pay clerk react the same as a Para, they are both ex mil.

Working in business you have to be able to talk to people.

Being an ex Craphat hasn't done me any harm. But in fairness 25 years as a police officer has done more good.

It is not what you were but what you are.

Stick with it
 
I think its right for the company's to take on only ex mill, not many civi's have been in contact I would think.
 
I think its right for the company's to take on only ex mill, not many civi's have been in contact I would think.

Reorg.
not many ex mil have dealt with the corporate sector and all the trappings of wealth either.
Or had 'contact' whilst completely unarmed as you would be here in the UK.
But in many theatres suitabley qualified ex mil are a must.
 
I think its right for the company's to take on only ex mill, not many civi's have been in contact I would think.



In reality we are talking about close protection which is different to Military operations. So I assume you mean “contact†with the enemy. Strategically in warfare the duty of the military is to close and kill the enemy. The role of the close protection team is to avoid contact with the enemy the two roles are entirely different. In an extreme situation when planning has failed a close protection team might have to protect the principal by returning fire.

This is no great issue if the person is trained in the use of cover and weapons. Other subjects such as radio procedure and medic’s are about the same. Among professionals planning and risk avoidance is much more advanced in a civilian environment. Simple put if the matrix does not add up you don’t do it.

Everything in life involves some form of risk; it is the job of the security professional to bring the risk to as low as possible. From my experience most leaving the military and entering into the CPO world could not do this without extensive trained; they try to counter this lack of ability by concentrating on watered down military tactics. Having been shot at does not mean you are ideal close protection material.

 
Just employ me its a lot easier saves a lot of hassle :D
Just kidding all the best in finding work or training

regards

jloveday
 
The final word is to work in a hostile environment depends on level of training you have received. This is why I have been trying to tell people to change to the BSI-NATO standard which we are clearing to State Level. As you know most have ignored me and the ex military assume they will be handed contracts. This might be possible but only for the few UK companies in the ME.

It is the BSI qualification which is the closest to the USA standard laid down by the USA National Defense Authorization Act. The people who make the decision as to whether you are trained to the correct standard for HECPO is not the SIA or any other group it is the Bureau of Diplomatic Security which comes under the USA state department. They are the people who also approve the course instructors. Our training ground in the USA is approved as are the instructors.

With the military contracts the DOD has developed a similar requirement. The new rules are in depth but as far as training goes contract security companies working on any Personal Protective Services contract are required to provide a minimum of 164 hours of personal protective security training. There is no requirement to do any form of military service. Out of the contractors in Iraq 78% is non coalition with the remaining 12% a mixture of British and American. You will find British operators will be replaced by Ugandans or other African nations. This then dups as a training ground for Africans.

From now a training certificate for the operator lasts 12 months and has to be renewed. This can be done in Jordan. There are also new rules for alcohol and repeated offences could mean the license being revoked.

Evan at this level it would be hard for a UK operator to pass as the course includes a lot on the legal aspect. To increase pass rates we suggested the training in tactics could be done in the UK with air soft and finalized in the USA with live firing. This would also mean the training curriculum includes the approved SIA syllabus but you would need an international driving license.

Out of interest you will also start hearing that a number of UK contract companies will start to change hands or be taken over by USA companies.
 
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Intersting NGIP. How acceptable or welcome are non US nationals after training,
or does the old spectre of US protectionism still hold the tiller for employment, despite commensurate training.
Just another small point NGIP, you say an international Driving license would be required.
Is this just an application for a paper document or is some form of higher driving skills training involved, or does it just fulfill the basic lower standards of the average driver.
Also could you expand a bit more, with say a working example or case study of a Brit or European having undertaken such training and gone on to such security employment, coming from a Civvi background or an Ex Mil one.
 
What a total load of Bollocks this is, have you all read what has been said? You should all be ashamed of yourselves, brotherhood???? networking, and help, ........who the **** is trying to out do who here. Stinks.
 
What a total load of Bollocks this is, have you all read what has been said? You should all be ashamed of yourselves, brotherhood???? networking, and help, ........who the **** is trying to out do who here. Stinks.

Thanks for your constructive input ops1.
Anything else to add oter than 'Fcuk off and get another job' as in a previous comment.
Brothers and sisters alike are comfortable enough in one anothers presence to exchange firm and frank views, throw in the odd insult, profanity and jibe.
But they usually end up pulling in the general direction to the benefit of the family, even though they may go about it in different wats.
Let them run, its just getting somewhere.
 
Oddjob,

I'll start with the easy ones; the international driving license is the easy one. These you get from organizations like the RAC. I think??? The reason for this is part of the USA requirement is convoy training. There are also specific ruling on Alcohol so if there is a DD it would be a fail mark. As for the old spectrum of USA elitism, what is happening there are several levels? 78% of something like 36000 employees of state and DOD are non collation this means some thing around 4000+ are USA and UK. Now I know people will be getting calculator out and coming back with the normal crap but remember we are talking Worldwide Personal Protective Services which is the protection program. We are not talking about convoys, etc just CPO although some of this will include checkpoint duties. The market we are aiming for is CPO. But and this is a big but, in another thread I think you were interest in Arabic speakers. There will be CPO training for Iraqi nationals in country. This is happening now. If you speak Arabic it is an extra bonus point. The last one is the hard one. The reason for this is this program is new. It came in 2009, I will update on this as I can’t find the file.
But at the moment this is not a sales pitch. But what I would advice all our readers is to stop acting like a load of big girls. This is serious and it affects everybody who wants to get into the market. We need to work on this and share information and ensure the future of the British end.
 
What a total load of Bollocks this is, have you all read what has been said? You should all be ashamed of yourselves, brotherhood???? networking, and help, ........who the **** is trying to out do who here. Stinks.

Good post but if you read my comments, I am out to make money. I want to attack this with a UK end of the market offering services. I mention I was not interested any brotherhood. If anybody is willing to sit in some ME pit for a reasonable wage and is well insured against the odd problem then you can rest assured that the people who are provided the training and equipment are laughing all the way to the bank. If anybody is interested and we eventually meet up we can show proof that we have supplied hardware officially to American companies. We can provide uniforms, radios, and other equipment thanks to a deal we did with the Chinese democratic. If anybody wants information on the NATO cp course you can have that.
 
Is being ex military the be all and end all?

Well to employer who asks for a certain criteria, Yes it is!!
Likewise with an employer who asks for someone to have a degree, essential, yes, but how many chance their arm and send the cv anyway?

Its different horses for different courses.

There seems to be a trend that people think that ex mil are only good for hostile environments and would be no good in a commercial setting. Ex forces are not all cavemen, eating every meal with a racing spoon. Likewise, all people with no prior military experience are not all going to fit in directly with the upper echelons, with fine dining etc.

Accept that, some people whatever their background wil excel in the industry, through their knowledge and network list, where as others will fall by the way side. Its not just this industry, its every industry, and ours is no different.

Mil experience, no mil experience, it matters not in the grand scheme of things, All that matters is that the client gets what they are paying for!! If that happens to be a team of ex RMP CP then so be it. If it happens to be that one person on the team is a bachelor of arts, then again, so be it!!!

Nothing more to add, but we're all civvies now, with the rank of Mr (or female equivalent)
 
I am encouraged by the range of valid views in this posting. As ex specialist police I can understand both viewpoints. I believe we all bring something to the table. However only a fool would take on an assignment for which they are not trained and thoroughly prepared. Deep down we all know what we are capable of - and persons whose ambitions exceed their current abilities will always be a danger to all.
 
I am encouraged by the range of valid views in this posting. As ex specialist police I can understand both viewpoints. I believe we all bring something to the table. However only a fool would take on an assignment for which they are not trained and thoroughly prepared. Deep down we all know what we are capable of - and persons whose ambitions exceed their current abilities will always be a danger to all.


I agree but this industry has no shortage of fools.

Many individuals proclaiming they have done this and that.

Factors whereby the main purpose is profit and not the operational mission. Factors involving the self absorption and egotism of individuals in CP commercial company managerial positions, and those involved directly in CP training and operations, that really do not have the training nor experience themselves that this profession needs and demands. Some commercial instructors claim to be ex-members of the elitist Royal Military Police Close Protection Unit or SAS Bodyguard trained yet in reality, all they have done is attend a 3 week commercial CP course instructed by ex-members from those units. Some commercial training courses claim to have instructors from those units and yet these same instructors, even though from those units, had not even attended their own units CP course. Individuals claiming to be ‘recognised’ as ‘World Authorities’ and ‘World Leaders’ in Close Protection and yet they themselves have never attended any ‘recognised’ CP course – let alone worked for the government in any specialist CP, military or police capacity.

All of this is a somewhat ‘play’ with words and pictures to cover their own dire shortfalls in training and experience during marketing with the aim of gaining commercial advantage, and to some, this may not be that relevant or that important.

However, these unprofessional ‘high jinks’ detrimentally affect training and operational standards and discredit the more professional teams, but more importantly carry out a disservice to those clients and Principals contemplating a service or are at present, receiving that ‘service’. This is occurring even after the implementation of the UK governments licensing. Combined with the poor core competency framework for CP training and the dreadful rules imposed for governing the Accreditation of Prior Learning, I wonder if any great benefit from the SIA CP licensing has been gained whatsoever.

I make no apologies for my bluntness. I make no apologies for making a stand. This is not a game but a serious profession and a serious business, and with all its associated applications should be given the focused deference it most rightly deserves.



Rich H
 
RCS I'm with you all the way on this one.
I feel in some ways the police force is an example of how the Security industry should be.
You all start as Constables on the beat (equate that to SIA trained) a competent level of training (unlike the SIA)
Then as you gain experience and further training. You go for specialist roles, and get trained to a higher level, to use these skills in the civilian world.
As regards battle training thats another role all together.
But is Iraqistan a BATTLE role that is being undertaken by the commercial CPO, or is it more in line with the Police role of protection.
There are a few select units in the Military that are trained in the select art of Close protection.
But now anyone who has wore a beret seems to think they are capable CPOs without question.
Where does general military training teach you how to deal with the general public ina conflict role.
Now don't misunderstand me, ex mil should be where thier previous training and expertise is of best use. i.e. Iraqistan etc.
But can the majority of you get down off your high horse and have some humility as regards your short comings.
I've dealt with, worked with enough of you in the past to honestly say, at best 25% are any good at all security roles that you have undertook in my presence, and theres a few ex RMP will back me 100% in that statement.
 
Ex-military are human; there is no difference between any of us. For this market we are a civilian company with a mixture of various backgrounds. What we can do as a company and we are very good at is paperwork and training. We can handle documentation to a government level hence the reason we are both NATO and DOD suppliers. This is also the reason we have progressed since we come to this forum. While a lot of your people have been convincing themselves they are the best available we have been looking at the overall operation. We looked at European firearms training and decided the ranges had possibilities but all current training did not meet requirements.

We examined USA contractual rules and we produced the correct course syllabus and had it certified as a NATO contract. This procedure cost over ten grand. In both the UK and USA we ensured instructors were certified. We became a Part Five firearms dealer and we formed an agreement with a Jordanian company to provide M4’s and side arms. We know the law on training in the UK so we became SATTRAM sole agents yes air-soft this will allow us to take people through basic tactics given them a better chance to pass DOD state standards.

Remember in the USA a kid can practice using live weapons in most states in the UK you cannot but this stuff will give grounding. On this site we made suggestion to some people to join us but we were met by childish comments from so called professionals, who then accused us of talking crap. We did not come back with any bull about being subject matter experts or any other stupidity. We did offer to share information and the workload with other training and equipment suppliers again the same response. This is were ex-military and police fall by the road. Most are not commercially aware and they can rarely close a deal. Winning contract and getting jobs is about the tick in the box. We took it a step further and built the box. We are more than capable of moving through the minefield of government bureaucracy and handing out that tick. But unlike the SIA it will be a hard tick to get. The first rule of business is never get involved in something you don’t think will succeed. The balls in your court.
 
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