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Krav Maga

monaco

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#61
Well I started something with my first post, going to stick to Judo, but at the moment got a mashed up knee oh the joys of senior years.
 

Dublad

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#62
I'm not really bothered about who trains what so long as the training I do is alive and of some assistance in the real world where I work. The training I've done I've occasionally had to use in my day job, so that's good enough for me.

Osu!
 

IrishRookie

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#63
Judo is a very effective art but for general self defence I would say your best bet would be to try MMA striking and no gi grappling or Brazilian jiu jitsu, when it comes to grappling there is very little that comes close to BJJ or no gi BJJ.
The BJJ would compliment your Judo for controlling people on the ground and the MMA would offer arguably the most effective form of striking encompassing Kicks, punches, elbows and knees.

I've done some Krav Maga before and wasn't overly impressed by it, but thats not to say its not better than knowing nothing, I just think there are more effective ways to learn self defence. IMO.
 

IrishRookie

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#64
Personally speaking, and I may well be wrong.
I can not see Krav holding comps. How would one get points? Krav is a full contact, "in and out" type of combat. It
would be over in a MAXIMUM of 25-30 seconds.
You could have a comp on who has the best demo or most realistic methods of dealing with threats I guess.

In answer to your question, weight means nothing.
The only time I've been at a disadvantage (for about 3-5 seconds) was on the ground with my chest on the floor. But then there's a method to get out of that situation.


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I would bet my granny's savings that if a good BJJ practitioner had you in that position you wouldn't escape, krav maga or no krav maga.

It's all well and good if you're going up against someone who doesn't have a clue or trains the same art as you, but dont make the mistake of thinking any martial art has all the answers, the closest I have ever seen to a perfect martial art is high level MMA.
 

IrishRookie

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#65
its only a weight classed,rules bound sport on the tv and the olympics.judo originated as a self defence martial art for a smaller practioner to be able to destroy and handle an opponent much bigger,which happens in the clubs training scab.With regards to picking the best bits,the problem that happens from this is similar to what is happening in MMA,jack of all trades,master of none
That's a ridiculous thing to say, most MMA athletes are very proficient in BJJ, which would be in my opinion superior to Judo as a grappling art. Also, the top level rounded MMA fighters would easily hold their own with top level fighters from boxing, Thai boxing and any other art you want to throw in their.
Your opinion of MMA gives an insight into your ignorance of the skill involved in it.
 

dannywayoflife

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#66
Bjj is great for grappling on the floor but judo controls the vertical grapple. In real life the ground is the last place you want to be! If you can strike or throw you way out then that's far better than pulling guard and going for a triangle.
 

IrishRookie

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#67
Krav is a bit more finely tuned than the MMA stuff cutting about today, MMA being almost a specific system of its own now.
Eh no, a Krav maga practitioner would have a very hard time trying to administer their techniques against a well trained MMA fighter with BJJ skils, krav maga is all well and good in a demo or compliant partner but real life is different and most fights turn into scuffles and brawls within seconds regardless of fancy technique. 7 years doing doors thought me that if nothing else.

Comparing KM to Judo, at a glance for Judo to be applied you have to be close - Krav Maga is all about getting close and utilising the tools with maximum potential for damage.
That is of course presuming the person trained in Judo doesn't hip throw you or uchimata your ass (which on the street means broken bones for you) before you can apply your death moves.
The same applies to krav maga going up against a good striker.

The downside is these things cannot be tested outside of real life; being the 'good' bad guy still does not let anyone realistically compare the application of full contact techniques.
True, therefore you can't presume anything about krav maga, my own opinion based on training in various martial arts and krav maga would be that krav maga if it was trained in regularly and consistently will offer good self defence skills against untrained aggressors but if someone trained in krav maga went up against a well trained MMA/No Gi Grappler I think they would have a very difficult time trying to dominate them.
 
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IrishRookie

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#68
Bjj is great for grappling on the floor but judo controls the vertical grapple. In real life the ground is the last place you want to be! If you can strike or throw you way out then that's far better than pulling guard and going for a triangle.
Of course Danny, hence the reason I said it would compliment Judo. Judo and BJJ work great together, add in MMA striking and it is as close to a complete art that exists in my opinion....oh and wrestling too for single leg and double leg take downs. Many many fights go to the ground if someone is not knocked out in the first 30 to 60 seconds.
 

dannywayoflife

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#69
60 seconds!!! That's a very very long fight!

Your right about judo and bjj complementing each other. I just think its a shame they are 2 different sports.
 

geds

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#70
Of course Danny, hence the reason I said it would compliment Judo. Judo and BJJ work great together, add in MMA striking and it is as close to a complete art that exists in my opinion....oh and wrestling too for single leg and double leg take downs. Many many fights go to the ground if someone is not knocked out in the first 30 to 60 seconds.
IR,

Brilliant point about the wrestling, probably the most underated martial art in Britain. No better skill for letting you decide where the fight happens, standing or on the ground.


In terms of which techniques are best, imo it comes down to skill level 99 times out of 100. I thought my MMA was half decent until a top judo guy threw me about. It took about a week to get my breath back. At the same time, I was able to dominate a good boxer just because he wasn't comfortable with kicks.

Train a bit of everything and you will be able to adapt what you use for different scenarios.

Geds
 

Scab

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#71
Eh no, a Krav maga practitioner would have a very hard time trying to administer their techniques against a well trained MMA fighter with BJJ skils, krav maga is all well and good in a demo or compliant partner but real life is different and most fights turn into scuffles and brawls within seconds regardless of fancy technique. 7 years doing doors thought me that if nothing else.

Really? How many KM guys have you seen working in real life applying their stuff to an aggressor? How much Krav have you seen that's genuine? Because this whole thing about Krav Maga being only good against 'compliant' training partners is kinda lost on the FACT that Krav Maga is singularly the most practised system among law enforcement, military and security agencies worldwide who regularly use it against people who are trained, high, drunk or whatever else you can think of.

But then if you think know better than many such bodies from all over the planet; you crack on mate.

Not only that, but it seems more and more people I speak to who claim knowledge of Krav Maga have not even scratched the surface of its training regimen; because so many classes are set up to cash in on the name and soften it because not a lot of people like to train hard which means not a lot of money to be made.



That is of course presuming the person trained in Judo doesn't hip throw you or uchimata your ass (which on the street means broken bones for you) before you can apply your death moves. The same applies to krav maga going up against a good striker.

Have you actually seen any Krav Maga being practised? Flip that around. How are you going to hip throw the Krav Maga guy while they are bursting at you and delivering knees from your groin? You automatically assume the other actor in the scenario is going to have the upper hand. That is not objective; that's just an assumption that you will always come up against someone better trained than you. The same arguement could be applied to ANY system of combatives OR martial arts. So what is your point exactly?

True, therefore you can't presume anything about krav maga, my own opinion based on training in various martial arts and krav maga would be that krav maga if it was trained in regularly and consistently will offer good self defence skills against untrained aggressors but if someone trained in krav maga went up against a well trained MMA/No Gi Grappler I think they would have a very difficult time trying to dominate them.
Your last point is a big 'what if' which could be applied to ANY system you could think to name. There's always someone out there better than you. There's always someone a little fitter. There is always someone who's going to have a little more luck than you one day. So what? What about this mythical guy who's off his face on drugs than can feel no pain?

The points you make are not specific to any system. To aim them at one does nothing for the cause of objectivity.
 

IrishRookie

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#72
Your last point is a big 'what if' which could be applied to ANY system you could think to name. There's always someone out there better than you. There's always someone a little fitter. There is always someone who's going to have a little more luck than you one day. So what? What about this mythical guy who's off his face on drugs than can feel no pain?

The points you make are not specific to any system. To aim them at one does nothing for the cause of objectivity.
Scab, you've some neck to talk about objectivity, you've been going on about how superior KM is to everything else yet you have nothing to back it up.

I'm not here to boast or claim I know it all, I dont...no one does but I have worked doors for years, I have trained in various martial arts and KM in the military and in my opinion krav maga is over rated, mostly by people who haven't got much exposure to other systems many of which are superior to KM.

There's no doubting you'd be better off knowing KM than nothing but it's not the be all and end all of self defence.
There are a few useful "dirty" tricks in it that may be useful against average joe but in my experience a person who has trained in KM alone will have a hard time in a confrontation against a good MMA practitioner.
As I said, I've done doors in busy night clubs for over 7 years, I've seen and been involved in more than my fair share of confrontations and I have seen what does and doesn't work first hand, night after night.

Just to elaborate, I never said KM was useless, it just isn't all it's cracked up to be by the KM fan boys...who many times have a vested interest in promoting it, i.e. 2 day seminars that are supposed to teach people how to defend themselves, at a hefty cost may I add. The reality is most people wouldn't learn how to throw a punch in 2 days let alone a rounded system of self defence.
 

IrishRookie

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#73
Just a note on one of your sentences scab,

"what are you going to do when a KM guy is bursting at you throwing knees at your groin"

there are several things I could do, one would be to clinch him and knee his face into mush, I'm not going to just stand there and let him knee me in the balls, then I could go for a leg, take him to the ground control him with BJJ and punch/elbow his head into a bloody mess. Very easily done if a person knows what they're doing.
 

Scab

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#74
Scab, you've some neck to talk about objectivity, you've been going on about how superior KM is to everything else yet you have nothing to back it up.

Do a web search on how widely used in official capacities Krav Maga is across the world. Job done.

And please address my other major point about your post: You said nothing special that cannot be applied to ANYONE practising ANY martial art of system; yet you are applying it specifically to one system.


I'm not here to boast or claim I know it all, I dont...no one does but I have worked doors for years, I have trained in various martial arts and KM in the military and in my opinion krav maga is over rated, mostly by people who haven't got much exposure to other systems many of which are superior to KM.

I've been training in various martial arts systems for nearly eighteen years and beein the security industry for twelve now; so yes, I have too.

There's no doubting you'd be better off knowing KM than nothing but it's not the be all and end all of self defence.

Never said it was. I said it was the fastest to learn to an applicable level with simple, and effective defences; many taken from other martial arts. However as I said earlier there's a few in there that feel unnatural to me too.

There are a few useful "dirty" tricks in it that may be useful against average joe but in my experience a person who has trained in KM alone will have a hard time in a confrontation against a good MMA practitioner.

What experience is that? I'll ask again; have you seen Krav Maga being used for real? Or even any decent training in it? And how does your experience overrule the VAST number of reports of people using their Krav Maga, even in part to good effect?

As I said, I've done doors in busy night clubs for over 7 years, I've seen and been involved in more than my fair share of confrontations and I have seen what does and doesn't work first hand, night after night.

Me too. My experience clearly differs from yours. There's more than one point of view you know.

Just to elaborate, I never said KM was useless,

Actually you for all practical purposes; did:

"krav maga is all well and good in a demo or compliant partner "


it just isn't all it's cracked up to be by the KM fan boys...who many times have a vested interest in promoting it, i.e. 2 day seminars that are supposed to teach people how to defend themselves, at a hefty cost may I add. The reality is most people wouldn't learn how to throw a punch in 2 days let alone a rounded system of self defence.
Yup - and on that last point is a point I made in my last post to you and earlier in the thread about the rampant commercialism that Krav Maga has unleashed. So please take the time to read what I have written. The brand has been bastardised and watered down no end to make it palatable and attractive to endless idiots who think they can be a ninja in a weekend. Most of the Krav Maga videos on youtube, are not. Most of the training is softened. It's bullshit. And one of the biggest organisations in the world, Commando Krav Maga, run by a con artist called Moni Aizik sells three day instructor courses to anyone. Literally, ANYONE. And it's not even Krav Maga - rather Moni's own Ju Jutsu cobbled into a bit of Krav Maga.

Just a note on one of your sentences scab,

"what are you going to do when a KM guy is bursting at you throwing knees at your groin"

there are several things I could do, one would be to clinch him and knee his face into mush, I'm not going to just stand there and let him knee me in the balls, then I could go for a leg, take him to the ground control him with BJJ and punch/elbow his head into a bloody mess. Very easily done if a person knows what they're doing.
Like the Krav Maga guy might? Who trains heavily in clinches? In elbows? In using his teeth? Head?

Yeah you kinda missed my point on that entirely, so here it is again:

What you said was not objective; that's just an assumption that you will always come up against someone better trained than you. The same argument could be applied to ANY system of combatives OR martial arts.
 

Paul2RGJ

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#75
I train at a Muay Thai/MMA gym because I enjoy MMA as a sport and obviously it's very good for fitness. Outside the gym I'm thinking of looking into Krav Maga or maybe one of the US Military Combat Systems. I don't know enough about any of that to comment though. Some good points have been raised about techniques from MMA, Wrestling, Boxing, etc that will get you out of a bit of trouble if you ever need to but as this is sport there are certain rules. No groin, eye, throat, back of head attacks. No headbutting. No small joint manipulation. The reason these things are banned are probably the reason they might be the quickest way to end a confrontation or slow somebody down for a few seconds so that you can extract.

Also, I wear shorts and a T shirt or Rash Guard to the gym. Always barefoot. Maybe the one time in my life I actually NEED something to be effective, my body armour, beltkit and boots weighed down in mud will hinder me.

As I said, I don't know enough about other systems to comment on them, but I'm definitely interested in looking into other styles. Whatever works, works.
 

IrishRookie

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#76
I have trained KM, it was being thought by Swedish Special Forces who according to them were thought by the Israeli Defence Force. So I'm guessing it was as close to the real thing as one can get.
Again, I wasn't overly impressed by it and it didn't offer anything common sense and previous training or experience hasn't thought me.
I couldn't be bothered arguing with you about it, you're entitled to your opinion as I am mine, probably best to leave it at that.
 

Scab

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#77
We don't have to argue about it; the crux of your point was a BJJ or MMA guy would give a KM guy a run for their money. Well anyone trained to a better standard in anything is going to give someone a run for their money. And that Krav Maga is simple is the whole point behind it. Simple techniques and applications taken from anywhere and everywhere - bearing in mind the founder; Imi Lichtenfield was an accomplished martial artist and boxer himself with lots of operational experience and having to defend himself from a young age in the ghettos.

But this is what I am saying about the misrepresentation and misunderstanding of Krav Maga. People think it's some magical black art of ninjaery awesome because of all the 'ultimate self defence' and 'defend yourself in one weekend' rubbish thrown about about it. But it's not. It's how it's (supposed) to be trained that sets it apart.

Remember when BJJ first hit the limelight? Same thing. Ultimate method of self defence. Sure. Unless you faced multiple attackers (for one point!) or someone was bigger, stronger, faster... etc... See where I am going with that?

Also, not to be petty, but Swedish SOG also using it add's fuel to my point earlier about its uptake worldwide owing to its effectiveness. ;)
 
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IrishRookie

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#78
We don't have to argue about it; the crux of your point was a BJJ or MMA guy would give a KM guy a run for their money. Well anyone trained to a better standard in anything is going to give someone a run for their money. And that Krav Maga is simple is the whole point behind it. Simple techniques and applications taken from anywhere and everywhere - bearing in mind the founder; Imi Lichtenfield was an accomplished martial artist and boxer himself with lots of operational experience and having to defend himself from a young age in the ghettos.

But this is what I am saying about the misrepresentation and misunderstanding of Krav Maga. People think it's some magical black art of ninjaery awesome because of all the 'ultimate self defence' and 'defend yourself in one weekend' rubbish thrown about about it. But it's not. It's how it's (supposed) to be trained that sets it apart.

Remember when BJJ first hit the limelight? Same thing. Ultimate method of self defence. Sure. Unless you faced multiple attackers (for one point!) or someone was bigger, stronger, faster... etc... See where I am going with that?

Also, not to be petty, but Swedish SOG also using it add's fuel to my point earlier about its uptake worldwide owing to its effectiveness. ;)
I said they trained in it, I never said it was more effective than anything else I trained in....hence the reason I wasn't too impressed ;-)

Anyway, your above post is fair enough, KM certainly does have its uses, but it's the fan boys who do 2 day seminars and think they're invincible that would cause irritation....unfortunately they seem to be in the majority.
 

boropete

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#79
That's a ridiculous thing to say, most MMA athletes are very proficient in BJJ, which would be in my opinion superior to Judo as a grappling art. Also, the top level rounded MMA fighters would easily hold their own with top level fighters from boxing, Thai boxing and any other art you want to throw in their.
Your opinion of MMA gives an insight into your ignorance of the skill involved in it.
i agree with a lot you've said reference the 'real' world applications of a martial art on this thread today,il explain a bit more about the above statement i made earlier.ive too worked a long time in the security world including the doors and also cross trained in judo/bjj and mma since 1996.MMA and BJJ are great arts,but judo i found was greater standing as in the real world,your wearing a gi (which is heavy and similar to clothing) and you dont want to be on your back going for the triangle when his mates using you as a football or hes biting into your nuts.As for boxing,a mma fighter trains a number of ranges/submissions/escapes/sweeps etc over 3-5 classes a week,a boxer simply trains his timing to knock someone out 3-5 times a week.why take hime down with a single leg to then waste time and your own safety G n p'ing when you can do it stood up and more legally safe.
 
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IrishRookie

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#80
i agree with a lot you've said reference the 'real' world applications of a martial art on this thread today,il explain a bit more about the the above statement.ive too worked a long time in the security world including the doors and also cross trained in judo/bjj and mma since 1996.MMA and BJJ are great arts,but judo i found was greater standing as in the real world,your wearing a gi (which is heavy and similar to clothing) and you dont want to be on your back going for the triangle when his mates using you as a football or hes biting into your nuts.As for boxing,a mma fighter trains a number of ranges/submissions/escapes/sweeps etc over 3-5 classes a week,a boxer simply trains his timing to knock someone out 3-5 times a week.why take hime down with a single leg to then waste time and your own safety G n p'ing when you can do it stood up and more legally safe.
I understand where you're coming from but I think you're seriously underestimating the skill involved in MMA when it is trained properly.
I only read this week that an MMA guy in Dublin went to be assessed by a boxing gym because he wanted to box at amateur senior level only to be told to forget about boxing amateur, he should go pro so he's going to have his first pro boxing fight in the near future....he never done a days training in a boxing gym.

Compare the likes of George Saint Pierre, Anderson Silva or Chael Sonnen's striking ability to any boxer pro or not and I dont think the boxer would last more than a couple of rounds with them.

MMA has come a long long way from the days of a mish mash of martial arts, it has become an art in its own right that in my opinion stands well above any other striking or grappling art. I used to box myself so I have an appreciation of the skills involved and can at least in some way compare them.

As for Judo, I think it is a great art but BJJ is ever evolving, many BJJ gyms have already adopted Judo take down techniques and has them incorporated into the system, as well as wrestling techniques, BJJ is not all ground fighting but it does put a big emphasis on that area.

PS, there's not a bloody hope I'd consider pulling guard or taking it to the ground in a street altercation, but it's good to know how to sweep someone off if it does go to ground and they end up on top.
 
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