Krav Maga

[boropete]

agreed,im a massive fan of mma and its a great system but for real life application i voted it into third place behind my front 2 simply because of the sporting aspect it become.in real life fights,truth is majority just last a couple of punches,if it gets close the judo was king of throwing and ending it,as the floor never misses.Be it street or in sport boxing and judo's goal was exactly the same.

 

[Scab]

I said they trained in it, I never said it was more effective than anything else I trained in....hence the reason I wasn't too impressed ;-)

Anyway, your above post is fair enough, KM certainly does have its uses, but it's the fan boys who do 2 day seminars and think they're invincible that would cause irritation....unfortunately they seem to be in the majority.

You are preaching to the converted. Like I said earlier - Krav Maga is a damaged brand. Butchered and bastardised in the name of commercialism and profit. The SOG comment was not about it's effectiveness, it was about it's uptake (based on its effectiveness..!)

 

[boropete]

Although I have to add I'd pay good coin to train Km with Itay Gill

 

[Alerion]

I found Krav Maga for the few weeks I tried it to be reasonably effective. I enjoyed the first place I went to, and learnt some useful things, however I stopped for a while and then moved location, and when I picked it up again at another school I was shocked by the prices... £60 per month?? I was a bit naive and went along with it, convincing myself it must be because of some superior quality, but that was a foolish decision. My personal opinion is that which is the majority here also.. The self defence system itself is not bad at all, however, the people delivering here in the UK appear to be heavily motivated to make a lot of money, more than that can be justified I would say, in my opinion.

 

[KingLeonidas]

martial arts have always have the problem of "private profiteering". you do have to look around a bit to find an instructor who is dedicated and offering good prices. but by the same token, 60 pounds/mo is not out of line with gym prices in the USA - esp. when the training school operates a fairly large property. they have to pay high rents if they are in large cities.

the main thing is to get into a program and stay with it. it takes a long time to really absorb these skills. do not be fooled by the fact that you have learned some techniques and they seem "ready to use". it takes a great deal more experience and training to be ready to use the skills against real assailants - where actual attacks are not choreographed motions. just press on.

cheers, KL

 

[SOCRATIS]

KM is a nice simple basic self defense system "designed" to take beginners and develop them into proficient combat fighters on the street.

BJJ IS JUDO - pre 1930's judo to be exact cont comdo was from the Kosen University Judo the gracies modified it. Go on Youtube and you'll see vids of Heilio doing judo throws and teaching part of the judo syllabus.

The emphasis of BJJ ground work is to suck the guy in and alot of what i see and have felt is they fight on their terms and no one elses which means the art is one dimensional - designed for a fair fight, competitive or not. It is not useful in a street fight.

MMA is a jack of all trades art and while its emphasis is competition its skills are good for self defense but still are one dimensional - one on one fair fight scenario.

Now all training in most clubs/gyms etc... work and train that way but people need to train using more than one opponent once the basic skill sets are developed, i have yet to see an MMA guy train for fighting two or more guys and I have never seen a BJJ guy train that way.

What I do know is you need skills to stay up on your feet, in the street the last place you need to go is the ground and i know Judo ground work is better for the street than BJJ because it focuses on pinning the guy rather than lying on you back you put the other guy on his back/face which in a street fight allows you to get up quicker and deal with others if that is the scenario.

MMA is the new Krav Maga - the day it focuses on multiple attackers is the day it will be very useful in a real fight - everythings else LARPING

 

[SOCRATIS]

KM is a nice simple basic self defense system "designed" to take beginners and develop them into proficient combat fighters on the street.

BJJ IS JUDO - pre 1930's judo to be exact cont comdo was from the Kosen University Judo the gracies modified it. Go on Youtube and you'll see vids of Heilio doing judo throws and teaching part of the judo syllabus.

The emphasis of BJJ ground work is to suck the guy in and alot of what i see and have felt is they fight on their terms and no one elses which means the art is one dimensional - designed for a fair fight, competitive or not. It is not useful in a street fight.

MMA is a jack of all trades art and while its emphasis is competition its skills are good for self defense but still are one dimensional - one on one fair fight scenario.

Now all training in most clubs/gyms etc... work and train that way but people need to train using more than one opponent once the basic skill sets are developed, i have yet to see an MMA guy train for fighting two or more guys and I have never seen a BJJ guy train that way.

What I do know is you need skills to stay up on your feet, in the street the last place you need to go is the ground and i know Judo ground work is better for the street than BJJ because it focuses on pinning the guy rather than lying on you back you put the other guy on his back/face which in a street fight allows you to get up quicker and deal with others if that is the scenario.

MMA is the new Krav Maga - the day it focuses on multiple attackers is the day it will be very useful in a real fight - everythings else LARPING

 

[Scab]

Have to disagree with MMA being the new KM - it is still a sport system revolving around stand off, 1 vs 1 fighting and a ground element revolving around the same. Comparing any martial arts with fighting systems is a bad comparison. It is not just the one on one element, it is the weight classes, illegal and legal techniques and strikes. Until for example, MMA takes biting, spitting, gouging, groin shots and more into its fighting vocabulary, it will never give one person an equal shot against another person or persons of differing heights and weights.

 

[SOCRATIS]

Have to disagree with MMA being the new KM - it is still a sport system revolving around stand off, 1 vs 1 fighting and a ground element revolving around the same. Comparing any martial arts with fighting systems is a bad comparison. It is not just the one on one element, it is the weight classes, illegal and legal techniques and strikes. Until for example, MMA takes biting, spitting, gouging, groin shots and more into its fighting vocabulary, it will never give one person an equal shot against another person or persons of differing heights and weights.

I agree with you on all you say but i neglected to say it myself. I simply think that MMA is a new "craze" or a new "Ninja Boom" in Martial arts and is more marketable than any system out there because of all the elements it has going for it, boxing, wrestling, Muay Thai & BJJ etc... plus the huge emphasis on fitness make it an easy choice for men for example as a method by which to get fit and test themselves.

My point was that as it is one dimensional and only one on one it doesn't account for weight/height differences etc... and nor does it account for concrete and two or three on one scenarios. I thought the weight etc... was implicit in the statement - should have been clearer.

 

[Scab]

Haha, no I got that, I was just listing other differences off of the top of my head and that one is a prominent one so in it went. Agree with the craze thing, and going back to something I said earlier; Krav Maga is a damaged brand here in the UK now.

 

[IrishRookie]

I think there is a lot of misinterpretation of what BJJ or MMA is here, unless you've trained in it for a significant amount of time and used it on the street I don't think you're qualified to critique it. Everyone with an interest in martial arts knows Jiu Jitsu (not just BJJ) originated with Judo, but Jiu Jitsu was a modified and improved Judo, still using Judo throws etc. But with a bigger emphasis on neutraliseing an opponent if you find yourself on the ground with an aggressor on top of you. KM, just doesn't compare when it comes to gaining the upper hand if you do happen to find yourself on the ground. In my experience, it is very common for a fight to go to the ground if someone is not knocked out in the first 30 to 60 seconds, hence the absolute necessity to be able to effectively sweep someone off from the top position, either so you can back to your feet or so you can finish them.

KM is a good basic self defence system, but that is all it is and all it ever will be. KM fan boys tend to grossly over estiamte its effectiveness due in many cases to ignorance of real hand to hand bare knuckle combat.

In the past I've worked doors all over Dublin city, in that time I've found myself many times faced with multiple attackers, the notion that MMA, Boxing or Judo/BJJ is not effective against multiple attackers is nonsense in my opinion, I base this opinion on experience. I've trained in KM a bit, enough to have a fair understanding of its aims and basic application and in my opinion there is no such thing as a quick fix for self defence, you can not teach someone how to develop a warrior mentality over the space of a weekend, and anyone who thinks they can is simply deluded.

KM lacks the ability to consistently test yourself against opponents, it lacks the ability to teach people how to control the fight or flight instinct which is vital for real self defence, this is something that can only be achieved through several years of conditioning, not through a few weekend seminars.

I've found myself faced with having to remove gangs of aggressive drug and drink fueled pikey's on many an occasion, and only for the training I've done in MMA/Judo and BJJ I would not have stood a chance, KM would not even come close to preparing me for that over the space of a few months of weekend seminars.

MMA, now more than ever is advancing at a phenomenal rate. It is not just a sport, it is an effective combat system involving the complete use of the body for self defence. Knees, Elbows, Punches Kicks and all aspects of grappling from wrestling to BJJ/Judo.

No self defence system comes close to its effectiveness in my opinion, as for multiple attackers, it is a simple matter of quickly neutralising an attacker then moving on to the next, its not rocket science or any special skill. That said, if faced with multiple attackers the most effective art form and most street wise approach is to practice the ancient art of "Run Jitsu" get the hell out of there and live to fight another day.

 

[Scab]

KM, just doesn't compare when it comes to gaining the upper hand if you do happen to find yourself on the ground. In my experience, it is very common for a fight to go to the ground if someone is not knocked out in the first 30 to 60 seconds, hence the absolute necessity to be able to effectively sweep someone off from the top position, either so you can back to your feet or so you can finish them.

KM has specific ground training. Which is not based upon rules. But few classes actually teach it for reasons unknown.

KM is a good basic self defence system, but that is all it is and all it ever will be. KM fan boys tend to grossly over estiamte its effectiveness due in many cases to ignorance of real hand to hand bare knuckle combat.

It is not a basic self defence system - it is a self defence system designed to be simple. Big difference. The most common successful use of techniques are simple ones because simple works and is easy to apply under stress.

In the past I've worked doors all over Dublin city, in that time I've found myself many times faced with multiple attackers, the notion that MMA, Boxing or Judo/BJJ is not effective against multiple attackers is nonsense in my opinion, I base this opinion on experience.

Everyone is different - the best MMA and KM training in the world delivered to four different people will come up with different outcomes. Often it is the person that makes the difference. You cannot decry an entire system based upon your experience of it when the individual practising or apply a system is a massively subjective thing!

I've trained in KM a bit, enough to have a fair understanding of its aims and basic application and in my opinion there is no such thing as a quick fix for self defence,

It does not profess to be. It professes to be easier to pick up than martial arts and designed from thr ground up to have an easier learning curve than martial arts.

you can not teach someone how to develop a warrior mentality over the space of a weekend, and anyone who thinks they can is simply deluded.

That comes down to the instructors and people selling the product. Not the system. I see this all the time too and entirely agree with you.

KM lacks the ability to consistently test yourself against opponents,

Now I question the authenticity of the KM you practised. CONSTANT testing, CONSTANT pressure testing is a cornerstone of KM.

it lacks the ability to teach people how to control the fight or flight instinct which is vital for real self defence, this is something that can only be achieved through several years of conditioning, not through a few weekend seminars.

Firstly no it does not - it is all about conditioning when taught properly. Secondly - again - that comes down to the bullshitters selling it like that. Just like they did when BJJ became popular after the Gracies success in the early UFC.

I've found myself faced with having to remove gangs of aggressive drug and drink fueled pikey's on many an occasion, and only for the training I've done in MMA/Judo and BJJ I would not have stood a chance, KM would not even come close to preparing me for that over the space of a few months of weekend seminars.

Again, its subjective as to what the person takes of the system, but KM also includes training and conditioning against multiple opponents such as zombie drills, where guys just keep on coming at you from all angles.

MMA, now more than ever is advancing at a phenomenal rate. It is not just a sport, it is an effective combat system involving the complete use of the body for self defence. Knees, Elbows, Punches Kicks and all aspects of grappling from wrestling to BJJ/Judo.

No, it is a sport. Sorry. You may apply it in another means, but it is born of sport and it is practised as sport by the vast majority. Just as it seems the majority teach KM outside of its intended means. MMA does not teach biting? Gouging? Spitting? It has rules. KM does not. That is a substantial distinction.

No self defence system comes close to its effectiveness in my opinion, as for multiple attackers, it is a simple matter of quickly neutralising an attacker then moving on to the next, its not rocket science or any special skill. That said, if faced with multiple attackers the most effective art form and most street wise approach is to practice the ancient art of "Run Jitsu" get the hell out of there and live to fight another day.

Running away is not always an option as I know you are aware.

Forgive me if any of that came across as argumentative - I just had a lot to say and did not wish to confuse points. I take on what you say but you are basing your opinion your experience where you are a major subjective area in your application of training. And with the impression you have of KM - the biggest tell is KM does not test you. Well it absolutely bloody should be if the instructors know what they are doing!

The problem is KM has been watered down no end to be more appealing to the average BIFF in the street who wants to have some sneaky ninja skills but not break much of a sweat doing it. Search out Krav Maga on youtube and most of the videos that come up are not KM or some bullshit that is loosely based upon some part of it.

This is why I say KM is a damaged brand. There is more bullshit out there pretending to be it than actual KM being taught. Like anything it is what the person practising makes of it. But no pressure testing in Krav Maga? Dude, you were not being trained properly.

 

[maximuszx12]

First rule to learn in KM and any other form of martial art used in fighting on the street.......

BUTCH CASSIDY & SUNDANCE KID: Knife Fight - YouTube

....There are no rules.

max

 

[keeniemeenieman]

Everyone has their valid points about the best forms of martial training ,and even a style of martial sport training has its worthwhile benefits ,in my own little world of evaluation i have taken small parts of varied techniques and adapted them to my own height/weight my vocal skills coupled with the old adage of distract,deceive,disrupt and destroy in the real world as a working operator, i have in the past come across and worked (deployed)with men of various fighting skills which they all profess to be the best for their particular role in which they are deployed,this include the biggest badass in Danish KM (J) six foot seven inches and built like a brick s***house ,i found his style bordering on Ninjutsu but with very repetative blows taking time and effort and not suitable for a one on one Bg position,because of his stature and rep he was and still is very afeared of any sort of blade attack by a much smaller attacker,yes i know that the home of Km is weapons oriented and so it should be ,Military training is not CPO training,neither is Judo as such and the same goes for all the rest of the martial arts (sports training)Boxing is a different kettle of fish in my opinium !Remembering to never punch with closed fist into a face but the rest of the skills you aquire are the most important you need in the way of balance ,speed pre emptive ability and the ability to take punishment and still keep your stamina and determination going to carry on fighting to win,then you take all the snippets of all the rest of the martial forms and adopt and adapt to end any conflict in one or two seconds to enable you to take on the next incoming problem for what you need in your own particular role in this world,there is nothing wrong in training in BJJ and then taking bits into MMA ,you only know whot works for you by trying all the different methods,i prefer guile mixed with the four Ds and a bit of bare kill gutterfighting when the need arrises.For the record i have felt the power of various masters and have found that no one is invincable.This is only my opinium ,it is not stated to promote resentment against anybodies sport training but to embrace all forms of training to understand their many weaknesses.I apologise for this ramble and hope it doesnt sound too gobbledegook.

 

[KingLeonidas]

"Krav Maga is a damaged brand here in the UK now"

a great shame to hear that. but it happens to pretty much every defensive system that gets popularized and marketed for profit. I actually have a quote from my own instructor (different training system, kali) written in my personal diary. It says and I quote ...

"I would rather die poor - than to teach my martial art to the wrong people".

that kind of commitment isn't so common these days.

cheers, KL

 

[niallyan]

So just out of curiosity what is the best? I did KM with Alwyn Dixon about 10 years ago, intensive course over 3 months and got my assistant instructors passport ( I know it probably doesn't mean anything, 3 months, no muscle memory, not practised since etc. but a lovely red printed T shirt that I will never wear) but it was useful. Whilst (I assume) hand to hand is difficult there can only be so many ways to assess/attack/defend and therefore only so many ways to apply learning to any situation, I'm sure aggression, mind set etc. play a part but surely humanity has done enough of this to identify the most efficient methods.

 

[Scab]

The best is what works for you. It's getting to the point it can work for you that's the interesting part. Combative systems are conceived to be as easy to learn and apply as possible. Martial arts / MMA / Sports systems are built on rules, tradition, long out of date concepts of combat in the case of martial arts specifically... I generalise of course.

 

[ry4alman]

Hi does anybody know anything about Geni-Ax worldwide ?

 

[counterforceslt]

Hi does anybody know anything about Geni-Ax worldwide ?

What relevance ?, with the subject being debated ?.

 

[Gkrav]

Krav Maga is a practical and tactical self defence system. Recognisable by its extreme effectiveness and ease with which one can learn, Krav Maga is used by many law enforcement and military units around the world. Krav Maga joins the natural body response mechanism with tactical, physical and mental elements of training to give you a well-grounded understanding of self-defence.