Less than Lethal

M

Mendeleve

Full Registered User
I'm a police officer that has an interest in less than lethal resolutions. Lethal Firearms don't leave any margins for error in both the apprehension of citizens and the resolution of volatile/severely dangerous situations. It is also a pretty bad idea to have a firearm around a chemical hotzone in my opinion. Given that severe threats are coming from chemical based weapons AND suicide threats are there any less than lethal options that can replace the lethal sidearm. Are less than lethal options researched and given as much attention as lethal? What options are there, we all know about tazer and sprays, yet some solvent based can't be used with tazer due to risk of combustion. There should rightly be a lethal solution to hostile threats in certain cases, but are we too quick to lean on our overstretched ARV capability? As a CBRN and PSU officer I work with ARVs on Ops and in regular service.:D
 
You have some interesting points there.

Anyway you look at it, _trained_ police officers should be armed. Especially in the UK with the violent crime and recent upsurge in firearms crime one cannot always rely on a mobile unti ot SO19 to be around the corner; you don;t always have the few minutes it takes for help to arrive.

Regarding the chemical issue; there are specific methods of operating in a volatile area. Regarding suicide bombers, they need to be shot and killed once positively identified; NO other solution to that.

As for making a mistake, you must not.

I do not envy you, in fact i have utmost respect for UK Police Officers that work unarmed; i don;t agree with it, but certainly respect it.

If it's any assistance to you, our (Israeli) security forces including the police use Krav Maga as a non-lethal or H2H art.

Regarding non-lethal weaponry for regular policing, i think you guys would not better than most as you are required to work in this manner; i know of course that the US LEO's have had good success with Tazors and recall reading that the Met was getting some?

Edited to add: I just noticed your point about tazers, in reply to that i'd say a solid knock about the noggin' normally helps calm a situation :-)

All the best

M
 
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In the past there have been exhibitions into the less than lethal options most of which were boycotted by many of the Police forces for whatever reason. Service within the police has seen a great period of change particularly the arming of Police Officers. More and more weapons are arriving on the streets even though restrictions on the possession of high powered weapons has been in place for more than a decade. Whilst we have armed police remember there is a conflict resolution model that should see the Police and CP deployed overseas make an assessment and escalate according to the threat presented. From Verbal persuasion to the use of the ASP or side handled baton should be a gradual process and then onto the Taser and CR Spray is the correct staged response after that there should be an introduction of bean bags fired from a shotgun against assailants armed with a blade or short lethal weapon. Once again the Police have their hands tied by the necessary clearances required to issue these weapons in the first place and for them to be justifiably deployed by the Chief Constable. The remainder of less than lethal options are primarily aimed at large violent protest groups with glue being fired at aggressive attackers, to large gas sprays for crowd dispersal and water cannon. Not forgetting the use of the baton gun.After that it should move to the lethal response for normal street based crime with armed aggressive assailants. Introduce the Terrorist factor to the mainland and you can place yourself on a par with the PSNI and the British Army who for thirty years had to make that split second decision now even harder when the terrorist hides their intentions under a jacket. The solution lies not with the deployment of weapons but with the community itself. Until they take responsibility and make active steps to integrate we will undoubtedly be in the same situation 30 years from now.
 
Fulcrum said:
I...The solution lies not with the deployment of weapons but with the community itself. Until they take responsibility and make active steps to integrate we will undoubtedly be in the same situation 30 years from now.
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Or until the next wave of terrorist attacks on UK soil, which will happen, it's only a matter of time until one slips through the net.


Less lethal is excellent for crowd control as you stated as well as handling unruly suspects etc. But when dealing with armed adversaries, one should be armed. In my eyes, there is no justification for an unarmed police force; it's like having a surgeon without a scalpel, a cabbie without a cab etc.

Stay safe all

m
 
Thanks for your responses so far. I don't intend to provoke, only to create debate. I agree with mts that sometimes being unarmed can leave me without options apart from searching out hard cover. However no-one can beat a decent recce report for getting the job done and having the time to reflect can be essential.

I disagree that all police should be armed, why take a gun into a fist fight? In that situation you are delivering danger and would only resolve by drawing the arm. I have no issue drawing a side arm, but I'm from the school of thought that if you draw it, you use it.

I know it would frighten the life out of my gran to have an armed officer in her house. We should be reassuring the public. When I started I had no vest and analouge radio, sometimes it was unusable, but at the end of the day my beat aint Bosnia.

I accept that I have (to name a few) a permanent fracture to my jaw, chipped teeth and a hole in my hand. But no-one died.

Thanks again guys and gals, some great points, I lok forward to hearing more.
 
Mendeleve said:
Thanks for your responses so far. I don't intend to provoke, only to create debate. I agree with mts that sometimes being unarmed can leave me without options apart from searching out hard cover. However no-one can beat a decent recce report for getting the job done and having the time to reflect can be essential.

I disagree that all police should be armed, why take a gun into a fist fight? In that situation you are delivering danger and would only resolve by drawing the arm. I have no issue drawing a side arm, but I'm from the school of thought that if you draw it, you use it.

I know it would frighten the life out of my gran to have an armed officer in her house. We should be reassuring the public. When I started I had no vest and analouge radio, sometimes it was unusable, but at the end of the day my beat aint Bosnia.

I accept that I have (to name a few) a permanent fracture to my jaw, chipped teeth and a hole in my hand. But no-one died.

Thanks again guys and gals, some great points, I lok forward to hearing more.
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You're not being provocative at all, we're a community, here to share ideas and learn from each other.


Now, back to the matter at hand.

1) Your Gran would get used to it; with all the kit the Met have on them anywya, she probably wouldn't notice a sidearm.

2) A fireamrs is not NEEDED by the police officer 99.9% of the time, but wouldn;t you want it there when needed?

3) A police officer with a firearm would instill fear into potential criminals, they have no respect for the law or police at present from what I've seen there.

4) With the growing threat of terrorism in the UK, what will a Bobby do when they see a suspected terrorist? Shout stop really loudly?

I don;t mean to be provocative either, but honestly, the concept of unarmed Boobies is from a bygone era. The UK Police and Met in particular is respected worldwide for their way of working, but they are lacking the response neccessary to deal with today's threats, both criminal and terrorist.

It will happen that more police are armed, it's unavoidable.

As for taking a gun to a firtfight; you've been there mate, you know that it's impossible to tell how it's going to end; a knifing? A shooting? The law needs to have the upper hand, and this needs to be clear.

Stay safe

m
 
Hey mts, thanks for answering bud.

I still think less than lethal can be effective. Unfortunately terrorists don't wear badges so if I do see one I kinda hope the protruding wires will give the game away.

Incidentally the idea of unarmed police is not from a bygone era, it's actually quite a recent idea. Originally all constables of the watch were armed with the best weapons available and the army was used when the pesants really wouldn't shut up and put up. However the fatalities in such conflicts were deemed un acceptable for a government to inflict on it's citizens.

If a gun is pulled that subject had better know how to use it as I believe that a weapon seen is a weapon less. I think if police were able to covert carry sidearms that would be a good compromise. It would get away from using scare tactics to gain respect. We are not at war with the public we represent.

Most of the cons I deal with respect me and in turn I respect them. Citizens will always have my respect as a public servant. I would be disaapointed if I had to wear a gun before people showed some sense. It wouldn't take long for the kids of today to figure out they won't get shot for calling me a *censored**censored**censored**censored*er and we'll be back to square one with no options.

I totally agree with you in terms of operational flexibilty, but I would rather we look at as many less than lethal options first. I don't mind being firearms trained with the weapons available, I just can't accept that british police need to be armed all the time. A least not in every area of the island.
 
I hear alot of my friends in the police saying, "if we get guns we will resign" or i joined the job to police not be an armed aggressor. I have to say I hear a lot saying "It would not bother me having one as it is just another piece of personal protection kit". Personally I think it is not coming soon, tazer's yes next couple of years, firearms no. It is too hot a potato for the home office. Less lethal is the way it is going for the normal plod in the street, your more trained firearms officer will get better kit but still be kept very much in check.
 
zatoichi said:
I hear alot of my friends in the police saying, "if we get guns we will resign" or i joined the job to police not be an armed aggressor. I have to say I hear a lot saying "It would not bother me having one as it is just another piece of personal protection kit". Personally I think it is not coming soon, tazer's yes next couple of years, firearms no. It is too hot a potato for the home office. Less lethal is the way it is going for the normal plod in the street, your more trained firearms officer will get better kit but still be kept very much in check.
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Agreed, i don;t think it's coming soon enough. As for police officers saying they'll leave if they get firearms, perhaps they aren't cut out to be police? No insult to your mates intended; just an observation.

For the record folks, i am not gun crazy and do not advocate working armed in all circumstances, but feel in law enforcement today it's necessary.

m
 
Hey Mts.

I don't think anyone who's carefully read your responses could say you're gun crazy. They would have to pretty silly not to see where you're coming from and I thin it's a valid point. I also agree that if an officer is not prepared to use a sidearm then they may struggle in the force frontline from time to time. I am not gun crazy either, however am not opposed to the carry and use of firearms. I love my work and wouldn't leave for anything.

I would ask, as I did originally, are we as a nation/idustry doing enough to explore less than lethal restraints? I'm happy using Captor spray and baton with cuffing and find if used correctly it will nearly always work. When it doesn't then the shields come out and that usually works etc, like previously commented, there is a scale of escalation to follow.

I was also curious as to whats out there that police could carry as a viable alternative. nets/glues/beanbag guns. All these things should be trialled long before guns arrive.

Thanks guys and gals, take care.
 
The US have many alternatives, many of which are pain compliance based, which TASER isn't. I have experienced TASER and find it very effective. The splurge guns which fire glue are really stuff of Sci-Fi, as are the net throwing guns and the small bags full of sand. The only option I would consider is the TASER. It is referred to locally as "less lethal", which just means "less dead", which is rubbish. The Burrows report calls these weapons less than lethal, which is a more correct phrase; weapons that are not intentionally deadly.
 
mate, i'm carrying a pepper gun in cape town (whilst awaiting my firearm license). the volume of the pepper is 20% which is 100% more than the normal and believe me, it incapacitates. look into it. should you need any help with where and how to get them or import/export, let me know and i'll do my best...andy.
 
Mendeleve, to try answer your original question, there is ALWAYS more to do to improve and develop less lethal methods. I think the UK should indee dbe leading this due to the policies practiced there.

Good luck mate, it's difficult to do what you're doing unarmed.

m
 
andynorris said:
mate, i'm carrying a pepper gun in cape town (whilst awaiting my firearm license). the volume of the pepper is 20% which is 100% more than the normal and believe me, it incapacitates. look into it. should you need any help with where and how to get them or import/export, let me know and i'll do my best...andy.
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Is that per chance a "pepperball" gun? Those are excellent! BTWm where id you buy your firearm? Cape Handgun as well as Cape Guns (Long Street) are both excellent; or at least were when i was last there.

m
 
yes mate, pepper ball...! excellent piece of kit..!! got the other personally although agree with you about long street - nice shop!
 
Guys.

Thanks for your responses I really apperciate them. Glad you got my angle mts I do agree with many of your points mate.

andynorris and sentinel, I apperciate the pointers. UK police use CAPTOR in many forces, mine is one of them. For those of you unfamiliar its a solvent based product named novamine and is pretty effective but must make contact with the eyes. The pepperball sounds like a good deal I'll look into that, and I have to agree that TASER will be heartily welcomed by myself.

Thanks again, all suggestions will be welcomed and listened to.

Mendeleve.
 
Taser

Gentlemen;

I hear from rumour control, TASER International are coming up with a new form of TASER delivery in the size of a 12 gauge round. So you are able to engage a threat at 50 yards, so stay tuned....

Stay Safe
 
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The unconventional weapons are the stuff of SciFi or comedy jape. I agree with the above; I, too, have colleagues who have not become Police Officers to become paramilitary. Although not to the extent as in the MIlitary, there is still a place from just about everyone in The Job. Some are thinkers, some are doers. It'd be wrong to foist firearms on everyone. Better to train some well, rather than all poorly. There is a plan written to arm all officers in a force which gives them a three day course in how to shoot, but no tactics. It is possible to teach monkeys to shoot; it's knowing who not to shoot that's important. Stick to conventional weapons. Money spent on unconventional weapons, such as those mentioned, is a waste of money and time. They would never be accepted by ACPO, let alone trialled and adopted.
 
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