Please Help/ Baton

R

RossClynes

New Member
Hello
UK law says that a baton is classed as a offensive weapon I was wondering is there any certification A civilian an SIA card holder can undertake to be able to legal carry a telescopic baton ? In my opinion they are one of the best tools for a self defence situation .
Thanks
 
In short..? NO! Ross learn to use your hands mate and if you are a CPO or whatever they call it these days, then? always carry a pair of leather gloves...

CD
 
How many times is this question going to be asked?

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As been stated by others,attend a proper physical course for getting your own self confidence in your unarmed ability to handle situations,not an SIA conflict management or restraint course but something that will give you the confidence in your own ability,the niceties of courses can follow later,there are plenty about who can give you a few days in gutterfighting/cqc,look local to where you live and do it ,anyone who has to rely on a hasp/baton to give him ability shouldnt be doing the job.
Only my opinium.
 
A baton is classed as an offensive weapon for a good reason, it's a piece of high-carbon steel that's going to break bones and cause some serious damage. I seriously doubt you would ever be able to justify its use in a "self defence" situation. Grabbing an improvised weapon because you feel your life is in danger is one thing, carrying the weapon in the first place leaves you open to being labelled as the aggressor, and carries the risk of pre-meditation.

As Carl rightly said, develop your understanding and ability in unarmed tactics, for me it's a basic pre-requisite for any serious operator.

CENTRE22.CO.UK
 
Its strange how we all have our own viewpoints in regards weapons and doing this so called job of cpo/operator ,yes if we are talking DS !OK but never have i worried about causing serious hurt or damage when faced with aggression or violent attack,i agree with CENTRE22 in his comments for the home market but not in regards to overseas ,if you are lawfully armed in your duties are you classed as the aggressor?.
 
My comments were in the context of the question as posed by the OP, an offensive weapon as stipulated under UK law.

Change the context and you change the discussion.
 
RossClynes said:
Hello
UK law says that a baton is classed as a offensive weapon I was wondering is there any certification A civilian an SIA card holder can undertake to be able to legal carry a telescopic baton ? In my opinion they are one of the best tools for a self defence situation .
Thanks
Click to expand...



one word answer,



no


three word answer

join the police
 
Thanks for all the help . Iv taken it all in . Regarding the question about the SIA license i am currently in there proses of exporting avenues to get one. With regards to the ( join the Police ) comment i am also in the proses of joining . however having do 3 years with the ambulances services and worked with door staff and other security officers i fell that door work or close protection is definitely something i would like to do. and finely with regards to the grate piece of advice about learning to use my hands I have taken part in allot of kick boxing boxing and MMA training over the years and i am generally quite confident about using my hands . Once again thanks for all the grate comments.
 
If you plan on joining the police I wouldnt bother getting an sia as some forces look at it as a conflict of intrest. So if you join then the sia license will be wasted.

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Firstly what Police Force you looking to join

as if your based in London joining the Specials there is NO way they will let you join the force as a Close protection officer/ Or even Security as that matter.

now even a Baton if a Constable stops you and searches (Regardless of you being a Constable your self) you need to Justify why you have it off Duty.


this why the Police have have to be careful who they take on !!
 
There have been some excellent points on this thread that I won't repeat. I would add a different twist to carrying and using a baton. Those of us who were police officers and I'm sure for those in the military police who used a baton. There is a specific type of training that goes along with the use of force. In my experience as a former law enforcement trainer in the USA. There is a specific training that is not just physical training to use a baton and also there is a mental aspect that in my opinion takes more than just a five day course as there is a different mind set and continued training to use a baton.

I would suggest a verbal judo course or some type of training that teaches you to de escalate the situation. As a CPO it is not only your image but the image of the client that has to be considered. There is also a way to make the people see this confrontation to be on your side through verbal commands. Believe me I been there. Using a baton in a police situation is very dangerous as the situation is fluid. Meaning that the person is generally moving when you use a baton. Your verbal commands would have to be on point in order to make witnesses work on your behalf. They will see what happens and will probably be recorded. So people will hear what you say and see what you do. They won't forget either. Say the wrong thing and it will be punishing for you in court. This is why the people who use batons as a matter of lawful work in the police use specific techniques.

Also there is the issue of documentation and explaining your use of force to the police. I'm not talking creative report writing or test a lie. Again, people will see what you do and hear what you say. Likely it would be on camera with time and date stamp so being specific is important. I find that most people can not articulate in writing or in their words why they used any force at all.

Another area that is often misquoted is the flight or fight response. There are two other responses that people either don't know or recognize. Those are submission, which means the person submits to the police officer without further incident. The other one is posturing. If you have ever been around a confrontation there is posturing and you have to be able to recognize and interpret them and prepare your response accordingly. Sort of like a boxing match where the fighters try to psych each other out.

Finally if you have ever been in a confrontation there is a mental after effect that you have to prepare for. Especially the after effects of the use of force. So it's not as simple as attending a baton course there is a whole new dynamic that goes with it. Personally I think we should focus and perfect the basics first. Most people have and some have not. There is a point where the person submits and the officer has to know when to stop. All of this training is intense mentally and physically. Dave Rubens told me once that to be in the top 5% of security one has to do the following: report to work on time, be dressed in the appropriate attire and to be prepared mentally and physically to do the job. Ask yourself, Do you carry a notebook and a pen when you are working? If you have ever been involved in an incident how will you remember where you were, who was present, who was involved, who the witnesses were, video recordings of the incident etc? Are you representing not only yourself but the client in a professional way? If as a CPO you got involved in a hands on event. You probably will be left at the scene as the client will have been extracted and you will be left to deal with it. So having a good presence and using proper verbal de escalation in my opinion is the key. Two weeks after the incident when the police knock on your door you will not remember any of the above points if you don't know how to document.

We live in a culture of litigation. The use of a baton or even possession of one is not only illegal. But carries with it a great responsibility that the average Joe on a job is not prepared for. I believe that negotiations and learning to use your body is the best way forward.

Tapmaster
 
Tap,

Good post pal, one thing I'd say re pocket note book, most of us have a smart phone or android phone these days and the digital dictation machine app is a favourite of mine, phones are multi tools as well as a means of making / receiving calls

Regards

premier


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premier said:
Tap,

Good post pal, one thing I'd say re pocket note book, most of us have a smart phone or android phone these days and the digital dictation machine app is a favourite of mine, phones are multi tools as well as a means of making / receiving calls

Regards

premier


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Click to expand...

but be careful with use of own phone.

Firstly, you are meant to carry around a PNB (you should have been taught that on an SIA course)

Secondly, you obtain evidence on your own phone, then your phone CAN (not will, just CAN) be seized as evidence
 
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