Welcome!

By registering with us, you'll be able to discuss, share and private message with other members of our community.

SignUp Now!

Self Defence - In the real world

RKT

Longterm Registered User
Joined
Jan 3, 2009
Messages
144
Likes
244
#1
Just for the discussion.

I have been reading the posts about Krav Maga and MMA and all the other combat style martial arts out there, one post worried me:

"I was at my Krav class last night and picked a buddy who was about 6ft and was quite a lot heavier than me. (I'm 5ft 7 and weigh about 11.5 stone) I picked this guy as he was one of the biggest there and has done KM for a few months.

He asked me why I wanted to be his partner "I'd just jump on you" I replied back go on then! Anyway after a 5 second play he was thrown on the floor and with a "stamp on his head" it was all over. "


I assumed that all self defence techniques and systems were just that - Self Defence, I assume that "Stamping on His Head" would end up with you being arrested.

Also all these sports based martial arts take years to perfect and learn, muscle memory is one term bandied about a lot, is there anything that can be learnt/taught without the need for years in a Dojo? I am not talking about defending against a ninja but defending against an aggressor in a real world situation, something that my wife or daughter could use as well as a 6'2 male.

Your actions would also have to stand up in a UK court!!

I would like peoples thoughts on types of attacks and what actions they would take to defend themselves, lets see who would stay out of prison!!
 
Last edited:

premier

Longterm Registered User
Joined
Nov 8, 2009
Messages
1,602
Likes
234
#2
RKT,

The answer to the question of time in a Dojo, is NO
You can not learn a self defence quickly, in my humble opinion. It is drilled into you

I to like to train with the biggest, strongest,hardest guy on the mat which is great because he likes to train with me, the second biggest on the mat......
mainly because we train hard, the bruising is real as is the blood sometimes.

As for what I would do if defending myself, family or a client... That's simple I'd do whatever I needed to and let my expensive barrister worry about the who what why questions..
Do what it takes!
Remember the term "reasonable force"
Make NO comment if arrested

That WILL keep you OUT of prison

Regards

premier


Sent from my iPad using Close Protection World
 
Last edited:

celt

Full Registered User
Joined
Apr 13, 2013
Messages
5
Likes
0
#3
as an ex boxer of many years experience I would do what I have done so many times before,dodge & weave in & out of all the blows eventually putting them off balance and to the floor where they will stay until police arrive, which I would intruct someone to do, if police don't arrive I would continue to tire them out completely
 

littlewoman

Longterm Registered User
Joined
Jan 2, 2008
Messages
3,031
Likes
437
#4
Whilst it may take years to become proficient in any art I do think its possible to learn a limited number of techniques that cover at least some of the more common situations in a relatively short period of time. Obviously you still have to practice them quite a lot, but if you limit the number of techniques then that is possible.

However if you go for something that is a sport, you are not going to learn something that is all that good in the street for self-defence. One of the best techniques is to kick or knee someone in the groin, or grab and twist if they grab you from behind. You won't find sporty arts teaching this sort of thing because its naughty and unsportsmanlike.

Unfortunately, most clubs are sport martial arts, it seems few are interested in something that doesn't have competitions and I would suggest that's because most men like to prove themselves and show what a good fighter they are by competing in a public arena. So those arts which are more combat orientated tend to have fewer clubs and are harder to find.
 

RKT

Longterm Registered User
Joined
Jan 3, 2009
Messages
144
Likes
244
#5
Interesting comments so far, Premier I am intrigued that you would put yourself into a situation where your licence was in the hands of your barrister's competence!! I understand where you are coming from when protecting family and client from potentially lethal attack but what if the attack was just a drunk looking for trouble? How much force would you use and what techniques could you use?

I am playing Devil's Advocate by the way!!
 

RKT

Longterm Registered User
Joined
Jan 3, 2009
Messages
144
Likes
244
#6
as an ex boxer of many years experience I would do what I have done so many times before,dodge & weave in & out of all the blows eventually putting them off balance and to the floor where they will stay until police arrive, which I would intruct someone to do, if police don't arrive I would continue to tire them out completely
Hi Celt
yes, again, interesting but you are now fighting with the attacker for a protracted period of time, who might be female, I am interested in self defence and, as Premier mentioned Client, maybe protecting a client, so we want to get away as soon as possible!!

Again, playing DA!!, your answer would suit someone who was trying to box with you and not someone trying to grapple with you and take you to the floor!
 

KingLeonidas

Longterm Registered User
Joined
Oct 3, 2012
Messages
923
Likes
3
#7
RKT ... Your question has inherent conflicts.

There is always some kind of assumption about the type of threat you are facing, and the level of danger. You asked about self defense incl. yourself and family members. That could imply a threat to your home, or an assault on the streets. Violent criminals can be very VIOLENT. Violence is an art they cultivate .... It is a psychology. Forget about their legal rights - worry about your own safety. It is not easy to successfully defend against these people, and you cannot be half-hearted about it. If you want real skills, it will take real time invested in training to get there. There are no shortcuts.

Good luck!
KL
 

premier

Longterm Registered User
Joined
Nov 8, 2009
Messages
1,602
Likes
234
#8
RKT,

A drunk gets ejected mate, without too much drama!
When doing this we must use our wits and cunning as we are sober we have already won the battle...
They are already unsteady on their feet so a grip of the armpit and the surrounding skin and hair is always a bonus,

If all else fails they get carried out either conscious or unconscious, I can do both without worrying...

If I'm with a client I'd avoid the situation wherever possible but if it's unavoidable and a lunatic is inbound they get dropped, in a timely efficient manner that could be by the taking of legs at the knee, or kicked in the groin or my particular favourite a good hard blow to their sola plexus, if they can't breath they can't function..

As for relying on my barrister, well if that what needs to be done, I do it!

I would sooner be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

People who come to fight only complain when they lose, and in my eyes they can't really be on both sides of a fence,
they can use the ambulance but they can't really ask for the police!

That said Rocket Dodger has posted an article of how to deal with the police, it was written by a policeman so it we'll worth a read.

Regards

premier





Sent from my iPad using Close Protection World
 

KingLeonidas

Longterm Registered User
Joined
Oct 3, 2012
Messages
923
Likes
3
#9
"People who come to fight only complain when they lose."

True, Premier.

RKT ... Self defense is about doing violence on your attackers.
We package the idea in nice wrapping ... It is not a nice business.
And not supposed to be.

KL
 
Last edited:

Oddjob

New Member
Joined
May 12, 2008
Messages
9,224
Likes
4,109
#10
threat and response.
ball slap, throat chop. eye gouge.
for most daily situations an over reaction and will lead to arrest generally.
but in many situations thats the least of your problems really.
your decision.
train hard, fight easy, there are lots of sayings that carry a great weight of truth within them.
many of the arts teach discipline, control and spacial awareness as by products but no less vital than the hands on muscle memory techniques.
every fight/situation is different, but the openings and opportunities to a final solution often present themselves from your action and positioning, learned through practise and experience.
 

RKT

Longterm Registered User
Joined
Jan 3, 2009
Messages
144
Likes
244
#11
Thank you for all you answers but I think we have gone off tangent here.
best
RKT
 

RKT

Longterm Registered User
Joined
Jan 3, 2009
Messages
144
Likes
244
#12
That said Rocket Dodger has posted an article of how to deal with the police, it was written by a policeman so it we'll worth a read.

Regards

premier





Sent from my iPad using Close Protection World
I have just read it, very very good advice, everyone should read it!!
 

Oddjob

New Member
Joined
May 12, 2008
Messages
9,224
Likes
4,109
#13
I don't think we have gone off mark.
The answers you seek don't fit.
Let's do q&a then.
Give us your thoughts and imagined or experienced scenarios and see what comes back.
To my mind it very much depends on my perceived threat analysis for each scenario.
My judgement, my experience.

i also have access to the very best solicitor & barrister.
Heidi Leaney and Scott Evil.
37 years of conflict
and still roaming free with an unblemished record.
 

premier

Longterm Registered User
Joined
Nov 8, 2009
Messages
1,602
Likes
234
#14
OJ,

I have put the contact details of the solicitor's office I expect all my staff to contact on the reverse of their company ID badge should the worst happen!
Never mind the duty solicitor or worse no solicitor scenario, people always think they know best, but it has been proven more than once it has to be said,
my solicitor knows more!

Like you I've had 25 years of skirmishes of varying severity and I have always (thankfully) been NFA'd apart from once when the CPS decided to try their luck and my legal team made them look pathetic in court, proved a lie and got me duly discharged from court without a blemish on my record and the costs awarded.

Truly worth their weight in gold, and then some!

Regards

premier




Sent from my iPad using Close Protection World
 

Oddjob

New Member
Joined
May 12, 2008
Messages
9,224
Likes
4,109
#15
Premier spot on.
people employ us for our specialist knowledge and skills.
I am bright enough to know when it comes to the law, I want some one who knows a lot more than me.
some one who strikes the fear of god into those that would not see the world and the law as I do.
when it comes to the police, I have learned by experience that its best shutting up, or keeping it to a brief sketch.
seeing what they've got in mind, then letting Miss Leaney rip them a new arsehole. along with a swift exit stage left.
God bless her.
I've used Kaim Todner Solicitors 02073536660 24 hour call out for a few clients and the odd ('innocent' family member)
never let me down, or go down for that matter yet.
 

Carl Dowd

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 13, 2008
Messages
4,114
Likes
1,441
#16
I haven't read all the posts so apologies... a quote from one of our Firm's internal training manuals:

A street attack is not a contest with rules. It is a life-changing event, the trophy is your life and the defence value or aim is:
“To Kill or render an attacker ineffective and to reach this value or achieve that aim with extreme prejudiceâ€.

CD
 

RKT

Longterm Registered User
Joined
Jan 3, 2009
Messages
144
Likes
244
#17
A street attack is not a contest with rules. It is a life-changing event, the trophy is your life and the defence value or aim is:
“To Kill or render an attacker ineffective and to reach this value or achieve that aim with extreme prejudice”.
CD
Thank you for all your comments but look at the above from Carl.

If you were attacked by 2 drunks in the street, no weapons, and for no apparent reason, you are not working. you protect yourself and one of the drunks hits his head and is killed. When you end up in court, because that is where you are going, the use of that quote against your name will damn you.

My opinion only!! But Mr D, you are trained in XYZ martial arts are you not? "Yes Sir". These are Combat Arts are they not? "Yes Sir". Is it not, Mr D, your Firm's philosophy to “To Kill or render an attacker ineffective and to reach this value or achieve that aim with extreme prejudice”. Could you not have used minimal force?

I am not trying to be pedantic just looking at what force is used and what would keep you out of nick and put you into nick!!
I know that the variables are enormous and its got to be hypothetical!!
 

AMCMW

Longterm Registered User
Joined
Dec 14, 2011
Messages
179
Likes
4
#18
Given that everyone who has answered your question isn't in jail, or dead, they seem to know what they're doing.

How you'll react to the stress of violence is something you'll discover only one way, through experience. If you want to waste your time in a world of hypothetical scenarios then carry on, though I find this thread completely pointless.

My approach is to train hard, know the law, go have a beer and talk about something else.
 

Oddjob

New Member
Joined
May 12, 2008
Messages
9,224
Likes
4,109
#19
RKT you have offered your own defence in trying to devalue our statements.

Scott Eivil QC :
'' so you mr attacker and your now deceased friend. both drunk and high on illegal drugs, attacked Mr OddJob unprovoked in fact !
Why ? to what end ? Robbery, murder, mischief ?
what if Mr OddJob had a heart problem or had been the average 57 year old man, what if he'd have feel and banged his head on the kerb and died.
As we can see how easy that can happen. Did you not think, or did you just think you could get away with this unprovoked attack ?
Mr OddJob was very lucky that he is alive, and lucky he had the skill and where with all to deal with criminals such as you and you fellow attacker''

the above is why I am in the care of the Likes of Heidi Leaney, Scott Evil and Kaim Todner
and it has proved just so for many in my employ.

I do understand that it can be important to look the innocent, eye witnesses are some of the worst witnesses out there, they create and extrapolate. the victor can often be seen as the aggressor after the fact. so sure a caring nature might be the best after action if at all possible, but that's dependent on what's still going on around you or if you are with a client.
again the first to report a crime can be see as the aggrieved, the innocent, but we know that's a falsehood at best.
so many imponderables.
But make yourself the most prepared you can, train, observe and plan.
be sure you are the one still standing at the end,
the one able to tell his tale.
they're the important bits.
 

premier

Longterm Registered User
Joined
Nov 8, 2009
Messages
1,602
Likes
234
#20
RKT,

I am growing tired of the thread so this will be my last input!

To be attacked by 2, makes you the victim in law!

To win makes you the aggressor in the police station, I will again direct your attention to the no comment, scenario.

The police do not like us they are jealous of us they want us to be what they think we are!
Be smarter and use the firm OJ has provided in future if you ever find you have need to.

If 2 drunks attack you my advice is make every punch you throw
A) connect
B) count

Failing that let them kick the crap out of you and all the time their blows rain down you can take comfort from the fact your Sia license is safe!


Regards

premier


Sent from my iPad using Close Protection World
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom