Self Employed Dog Handlers

mcd said:
Biggest gripe I have is the insultingly low pay available to good, well-trained Dog Handlers in the UK. We constantly lose out on jobs we tender for because we want to pay Handlers £12.50/hr plus travelling etc and there are just too many idiots with their vans done up like Police vans and with their Utility Vests dripping with every conceivable line and piece of equipment which they'll never use, and happy to do it for £7/hr. We can't compete with that and most clients only care about the cheapest option. I don't think it'll ever change and I despair for the future of those good, professional handlers I know as they are losing out to the "walts" of this industry.
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this is the same in all sections and thats why CPW members may want too start working together to try to help each other out

over the last few months i have noticed that more members are now doing this ineach section some thing to look at i think

members helping members

cheers ed
 
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aes69 said:
I don't understand this statement. Why is being on site a joke and insulting?
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the reason is (for me anyway)because most firms talk about standards but when it boils down to it any man and a dog will do.i have several experiences where i have done a shift and the guy taking over from me turns up in a 2 door car with a dog on the backseat,the handler is wearing trainers and a tracksuit.to top it off hes on the same wage as me.it relates to the original question because you can go your whole dog handling career going as cheap as possible with all your expenses and never loose a nights works.what is the motivation(apart from personal pride)to try and do it any better.these threads about what would we like to see happen,where could we see changes are fine to debate but after a while it just a waste of wear on our keyboards.you poo poohed my idea of the police officer looking after his area handlers because of budget,let me poo pooh all of these types of threads as just being pie in the sky dreams.a while ago mark950 tried his hardest to get something of the ground as an industry to move it forward,because nearly no one was willing to stand beside him it fell by the wayside yet again,since then ive seen two variants of security k9 federations all talking the same thing all with different people leading the charge just so they can be the boss of it.my advice to anyone thinking of entering the k9 sector,do it because you want a life around dogs and this will give you a means to budget that life.dont do it because you want to be a professional or feel as challenged as when you where serving in a previous career you will be disappointed.and choose a sport so you can enjoy your progress of your dog,no one is ever going to visit you on site and ask you to follow a track in the middle of the night,unless of course you pay them to and thats half or more of your nights wages gone.
 
OK this isn't going the direction I'd hoped. I have a cost model, a very detailed cost model. It includes, training, uniform, National Insurance, holiday cover, sick cover, BH's, vehicle's, training equipment etc etc. I can change any detail, add and change my desired profit margin so I don't need to hold my finger in the air and guess what we should be charging a customer.

So, back to the self employed handlers; how can you cover your costs on £7-10 an hour? What are the costs that you accept as you being responsible for and what should the company be paying for? In an ideal world, every piece of equipment should be paid for, and that includes the dog(s).

I'm not asking this to press individuals into sharing their personal finances, I'm asking as a potential employer trying to do best by my company, whilst ensuring the lads & lasses working on dogs don't get ripped off!
 
ed said:
this is the same in all sections and thats why CPW members may want too start working together to try to help each other out

over the last few months i have noticed that more members are now doing this ineach section some thing to look at i think

members helping members

cheers ed
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ed, I appreciate the sentiment, but being a member of a forum doesn't qualify for assistance or discount! You've seen it yourself, there's a plethera of nuggets on here, some who folk have tried & tried to help, only for that help to ignored or discounted because in their professional (and often limited) opinion, it's wrong!

I think those that are deserving, and are willing to learn get plenty of help. Those that don't haven't asked the right person/group.
 
As for the helping your mates system, it has been the norm on this site for a while. I got my first CP role through here and have tried to do the same for my co-workers ever since. I base this on the fact that I would rather have someone I trust watching my back than someone I dont know.
The asking for help, even as one of the older (40) guys I still ask questions on a daily basis, there are many on the circuit who know more than me and hopefully many more that dont!! The man who stops learning doesnt deserve to work. My work dogs over the years have done things every day and made me think... hmmm thats a new one!!

Now back to the 'how do we manage our expenses on <£10 an hour. The way I am looking at it is this.... my overheads with the exception of fuel are the same practically all the time, my insurances, my dog food, my NI Contributions etc etc the only thing that varies is the hours I work. Would I work for £7 an hour?? NO! FACT! This isnt because I dont want the work because I do, but my knowledge, professionalism and the cost of training etc etc means I am worth more than that. AES69 I like the question and the reasons why you are asking it.... for the good of the handler and dog, what worries me is the 'any dog will do attitude' from some clients and will they pay the rates that allows you as an employer to make your margins as well as pay DECENT handlers a liveable wage and until an industry standard ensures handlers are 'at a level' or they cant work, clients can take the cheap option oblivious to the crap they are hiring.
 
aes69 said:
OK this isn't going the direction I'd hoped. I have a cost model, a very detailed cost model. It includes, training, uniform, National Insurance, holiday cover, sick cover, BH's, vehicle's, training equipment etc etc. I can change any detail, add and change my desired profit margin so I don't need to hold my finger in the air and guess what we should be charging a customer.

So, back to the self employed handlers; how can you cover your costs on £7-10 an hour? What are the costs that you accept as you being responsible for and what should the company be paying for? In an ideal world, every piece of equipment should be paid for, and that includes the dog(s).

I'm not asking this to press individuals into sharing their personal finances, I'm asking as a potential employer trying to do best by my company, whilst ensuring the lads & lasses working on dogs don't get ripped off!
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if it was a long term contract i would want the employer to take on all the running cost apart from my travel to and from work.which would include providing me with a work vehicle on site or kennels,of course as the employer offering this you would expect a degree of loyalty back i.e not working other places on days off so the wages would have to be above average(of course this would be balanced out with some of the other things being offered) or the amount of work not restricted by things like 4 on 4 off.as a self employed handler im always looking for this type of job,the closest i have come to it is a zero hour contract,not great because you still cover all your out goings and theres no job security with it.
 
silent said:
Does that count as a rant?
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Not at all!

This is a basic over view of things that needs to be paid for either by the customer, the employer or the handler. As always though, who? (not including uniform)

GP Dog Dog
GP Dog Vaccine
GP Dog Food Annual
GP Dog Grooming
GP Dog First Aid
GP Dog Insurance
GP Dog Equipment Collar
GP Dog Equipment Lead
GP Dog Equipment Long Line
GP Dog Equipment Muzzle
GP Dog Equipment Safety Boots
GP Dog Equipment Grooming Rake
GP Dog Equipment Grooming Comb
GP Dog Equipment Slicker Brush
GP Dog Equipment First Aid Kit
GP Dog Equipment Food Bowl
GP Dog Equipment Water Bowl
GP Dog Equipment Travel Water Bowl
GP Dog Equipment Water Bottle
GP Handlers Ops Bag
GP Trg Equipment Kong
GP Dog Equipment Bedding (Vetbed)
GP Dog Equipment Towels
GP Dog Equipment Home Kennel
GP Dog Equipment Kennel Chains
GP Vehicle Vehicle
GP Vehicle Vehicle Roof Vent
GP Vehicle Vehicle Temp Monitor
GP Vehicle Vehicle Kennel Fit
GP Vehicle Vehicle Exhaust Pipe Away
GP Trg Equipment Protection Muzzle
GP Trg Equipment Protection Arm
GP Trg Equipment Protection Bite Suit
 
I get where you are AES69 however my personal opinion is some of those, in fact alot of those, are part of being a handler. Whether the client or boss provides them I always use my own lead, grooming equipment and collars. This is purely for personal preference. Its my opinion that insurances, fuel, kenneling and the associated accessories should be provided by the company but general animal husbandry by the handler. It means I get to take more pride in the health, welfare and presentation of the dog and lets face it thats why we all became handlers in the first place!!! It wasnt for the glamour was it !!!!
 
i think most of the equipment listed would be classed as initial issue so i would expect the team to turn up on the initial assessment and prove they have most of it and can demonstrate how to use it correctly and that its all in good order.as an employer maybe you could have a store room and replace it for the team when required.as for the protection kit,lets not run before we can walk ,as you know you will do well to get good teams for your job let alone people that should be already training dogs.lets keep that under lock and key and only bring out when there is an experienced trainer around!!
 
Benji, hit the nail on the proverbial head! Why do handlers have to pay for their own training? Surely your company should be covering this cost as part of the quality control?
 
aes69 said:
Benji, hit the nail on the proverbial head! Why do handlers have to pay for their own training? Surely your company should be covering this cost as part of the quality control?
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Ah if only!!!! Unfortunately (and its not the employers fault) the margins are so tight that even if the employer was conscientious enough to want to do that the prices clients are willing to pay arent and yet again the untrained handler with next doors poodle will be getting the hours in :(
 
Shouldn't the employer be an expert in the field they're working in? The owner of a security company that provides canine services should be, or have an ops manager who is able to deliver training!
 
Once again mate we are talking pound notes. I spent a year as an Ops Manager for a regional security company and wanted to set only an hour per week aside for training, unfortunately the owner wanted me to spend so much time chasing new contracts that when I had sorted the lads rotas and positions out each week there was no time yet the company was ISO registered???? I was then landed with the invoicing and ISO compliance paperwork so zero training was carried out. Its a tough one for smaller companies mate, we would all like to have a chance to train, renew equipment etc etc but with the margins so small most of the smaller companies have to prioritise the sales side :( after all sales means profits and training doesnt!! The fact that a fully trained team are more cost efficient and more likely to keep a contract for longer seems to have escaped the hierachy in many companies.
 
aes69 said:
ed, I appreciate the sentiment, but being a member of a forum doesn't qualify for assistance or discount! You've seen it yourself, there's a plethera of nuggets on here, some who folk have tried & tried to help, only for that help to ignored or discounted because in their professional (and often limited) opinion, it's wrong!

I think those that are deserving, and are willing to learn get plenty of help. Those that don't haven't asked the right person/group.
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i agree mate

all the best ed
 
I was talking to several handlers the other day who were self employed and earning the grand total of £7.50 an hour!!

How?
 
Can you list the 10 best company's (as you say) in the Uk that you say provide dog handlers and dogs purely as an interest and not to disagree your point.

The thing that some if you have to remember is that the country has been in a recession over the past couple of years and I have two recent instances whereby a client has decided do they really need the utilities of a dog and handler and decided to 'downgrade' to just security officers and in some cases a cheaper option such as mobile patrols.

When I first started last year on my own in business my core business was security dogs (about 80%) this has now reduced to 40% 1) other non dog contracts have taken priority 2) clients looked at a cheaper option 3) the usual muppets dressed as police with more batten berg on their cars than Mr Kipling who enter the industry after two minutes and then want /start their own company and try to under cut you.
 
Napoleon, what you term as a good company compared to what I do will differ. It's not about the quality of the handler on the ground.
 
It was purely out of interest and how you come to / came to the conclusion not to disagree in open forum (as stated).
 
We have to look deeper nowadays. There's lots of good operators, but who are they supported by? Their ops team, HR, finance are all just as important as the boots on the ground.
 
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