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Should the SIA be axed?

Should the SIA be axed?


  • Total voters
    124
  • Poll closed .

Carl Dowd

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#21
Rich is right, where CP is concerned, the SIA have got it wrong on a bigger scale, perhaps that is just an example of the mess that licensing consultants could bring...

Fair points Rupert...

It remains a 'consideration' for me whether or not the SIA received the very best of advice from the CP Industry and others at the time of consultation...

Now I am absolutley no advocate of the SIA but that is for ethical and political reason, so I feel ALL the blame cannot rest on their [the Authority's] shoulders...

And

In answer to your direct question Rich..? No of course it hasn't, you know that, I know that, many others on here recognise that... In the CP and PSD industry they created a 'Gravy Train'... but hey..! as a revenue aspect who can fault them..?
 
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WhiskyCharlie

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#22
When a bunch of coppers first started muting the idea of security regulation all those years ago, it was because they insisted that the industry had too many criminals within it. But that was only because those figures included thousands of dodgy doormen, plenty of whom had records as long as. Every industry has a few crooks in it, (the police more than most) regulation will not get rid of them, if it did, there would be no bent coppers.

In reality, its the door staff part of the industry that has benefited from the SIA existence, doormen now have a modicum of training and most have no criminal past. As for the rest of the security industry it has been hamstrung and robbed by this quango, that charged us and swore us to meet standards that the vast majority already exceeded.

My vote would be for a CRB check only and then leave the industry alone. Market forces drive professionalism, not quangos.
 

RW1

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#23
(also posted on other threads of the same topic)


I’ve always had mixed feelings about the SIA but in all honesty, (without wishing to sound like an old fart,) I preferred the industry pre-SIA. Now, I think it’s a combination of conflicts in the Middle East/South Asia and also the SIA but I think they are the main reason standards have dropped and wages plummeted.

Why?


Well, why was the SIA first set up? This was because of door staff coming from the criminal fraternity dealing drugs in pubs and clubs on their “turf†and also because of unscrupulous and overzealous wheel clampers taking the piss out of motorists. Once the SIA was set up to regulate these two sectors, some bright spark then pounced on security guards, CCTV and eventually progressed on to the Close Protection sector. The SIA has been chipping away looking at avenues to exploit the Security Consultancy and Investigation sector, looking to extend the SIA’s sphere of influence and fee raising activities.

Has the SIA eradicated bouncers dealing drugs or overzealous wheel clampers? It reduced it quite a bit at the start but those activities are on the increase again. It kind of takes “the mick†out of the SIA, showing how ineffective they can be on the licence enforcement aspect, and makes the SIA licence seem like a waste of time and money for honest operators.

Pre-SIA, some UK local authority/councils used to licence door staff, and in all honesty I think this was a better approach as local authorities would work hand in hand with local police who in turn knew local faces. National bodies are so far removed, it is easy to find loopholes and ways round certain minor challenges to the SIA licence scheme.

Some have mentioned industry standards have risen since the SIA came along. I can honestly say that is not the case as far as the CP sector is concerned. Standards have dropped considerably as very basic courses have given a lot of people the licence to call themselves a CP operative. Yes, there were a handful of “meatheads†but they were usually doing very low level local work and not operating at a professional CP level, and to be honest some are still in the industry having done an SIA approved course.

Pre-SIA, the CP sector was extremely self regulating. It was a much smaller industry, people knew each other a lot more and certainly knew what courses were held in high esteem and which courses were regarded as useless. Since the conflicts in the Middle East/South Asia, the industry has become flooded with people trying to get on the gold rush train, a train which left the station a long long time ago. However, wages and living standards are still much better in PMC/PSC employment than government MOD/DOD employment, and so people are still leaving the forces to get employment with a PMC/PSC operating in high risk environments.

Post SIA, it has gone from a handful of CP training providers to quite a vast number of CP training providers. And to be honest, this is not a good thing; it clouds the good courses from the bad. No matter who the training provider, every single CP course produces the exact same end result. The little plastic SIA card. Pre-SIA, a potential employee would turn up at interview with his or her respective course certificates, where more likely than not, the interviewer would know the training company in question, and if the potential employee passed the interview stage, he/she might then be asked to carry out a criminal record check through their local police station.

If CP training course X is awesome, and CP training course Y is a waste of time but both courses produce the same SIA endorsed little plastic card, how is that good for the CP industry when both courses hold the same qualification?

The SIA has opened the door to those wanting to work in the CP industry, and that is a good thing. However, standards set by the SIA for licensing are too low and as such the SIA has not so much opened the door but rather raised the CP industry’s head well and truly above the parapet, (attracting - and licensing - all kinds of walter mittys,) and opened the flood gates and now many many people out there hold a CP licence, and call themselves a CP operator, having done a basic 150hour course Y.

The market is flooded and it is an employer’s market in the sense that employers can now pick and choose an SIA licensed operative to work exactly on the employers terms and conditions, because if you don’t want to work for £10 an hour, there are many people that are desperate enough to work in the CP industry that they’ll work for £8 an hour or less. They will still charge the client the same fees though, and profit margins go through the roof.

So, if they get rid of the SIA, what will happen? Initially, not a lot, I think. At least not until the lure of the Middle East/South Asia has reduced considerably, then I think the number of new people entering the industry will reduce, and as such the “lesser†of the training providers will fall by the wayside, leaving the more established training companies to carry on, and hopefully setting a higher standard than is currently set by the SIA.

Another option if the SIA is disbanded, is training companies, now not restricted by business competition initiated by the SIA low standards for a licence, finding the courage to raise the bar once again, back to pre-SIA levels. Getting in touch with the employers, inviting them to the training schools and showing what they can produce, above and beyond current SIA standards. Hopefully then, employers will start to insist, as they once did, (and some main players still do,) on potential employees completing certain courses and training company qualifications that supersede anything the SIA insisted upon.

I do not think an awful lot has been gained in the CP sector by having the SIA “regulate†it. The industry has still remained self regulating, (especially for the higher level jobs,) but operators have still had to pay the “SIA tax†for the little plastic badge. Operators, (or other government bodies,) have had to fork out a few thousand pounds for a course, only then to struggle to find work and sometimes low paid work at that. How has the SIA itself, actually helped those people? It has insisted you pay them a few hundred pounds but then what have you, as an individual gained from holding that licence? The SIA has clouded people’s vision, by lowering industry standards on training courses, (on an already self regulating sector of the security industry,) and diverting peoples and employer’s attention away from actual standards and forced them to focus more on the specific licence itself rather than training course content and standards. This has allowed training companies to enter the arena, deliver lower level training and for the established companies to compete, have had to adjust and reduce their own training levels to stay in business.

I do not see how individuals have benefitted by the actual SIA. I would be very interested to see how many licence CP infringements have been enforced by the SIA since its introduction, and see the crime figures relating specifically to the CP sector pre-SIA.

Door staff should go back to being regulated by local authorities and wheel clampers should also be regulated by local authorities and trading standards.

The SIA was a good idea, in principal; it has just never reached its true potential.
 

waynem007

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#25
I certainly agrre with Rich that looking at CP alone, the SIA gets a big "NO".

But, the statement above is part of the problem. Yes CP is specialist, but so is CCTV, in that its use of specific technology etc makes it so, nd thus differednt from CP. The inferance that numptys are ok in one area of industry but not another is ludicrous; if holisticly CP is that specialist (in the way it is illuded to) then make it the preserve of govt agencies only! To suggest that one area of security be above any licensing / training / regulation is quite arrogant.

Maybe CP should be subserviant to Consulting?! (lets not go there...!)

Everyone operating in a front line customer facing role ought to be registered and have an acceped standard of training; specific to their area of operation - the fact is that standard, enforcement and even training is feckin shocking right now under this model.

Lets not get onto the "I'm James Bond / Frank Farmer et al and you are just a fat nightwatchman" argument.

Rich is right, where CP is concerned, the SIA have got it wrong on a bigger scale, perhaps that is just an example of the mess that licensing consultants could bring...

But to put one job function above or outside others in this industry will not work; It would however be interesting to see how many of the 5000+ CP license holders were quite so vocal if the SIA (CP) license was canned and they were (a large part) left with no credability compared with those with the types of CV's who were successfull on the Circuit 10-15 years ago.
I dont disagree at all in fact i would like to see the entire industry level lifted professionally and am 100% behind anything that makes sure the guy watching my back is more that some cock that threw a few hundred quid at a classroom course. But my point was CP is life and death, last line of defence if you like where are CCTV, DS, SG etc all have backup from the police who ultimatley have shared responsibility to resolve the issue.

There are no police to fall back on in some CP scenario's like plod aint gonna help you out in the sand are they? No only your skills and drills and that of those around you are gonna keep you out of the ground, so i think that CP should be a self regulated area of the industry.

Dont get me wrong ive done every other area of security including some CP tasks Pre-SIA, and they each have thier own dangers but none so great as to be incapable in the middle east to yourself and those around you.

As always humble opinion only!:cool:
 

mast

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#26
I have had a course funded by the dole office they will not pay for licence thank you yes
 
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1295

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#27
Again i think it could be a good thing and a bad thing losing the SIA.
As said above it would prob be good for the CP industry as it will go back (eventually) to the way it was before, where i believe a lot of work was found by word of mouth?
However for us lesser mortals in the DS/SG side of things then it is gonna be a very bad thing, in that this will allow a lot of the more unscrupulous companies back into the fold!!!!
We do need something to take over from the SIA be it at a regional (Scotland, England, Wales and Ireland all having their own) or National (UK) we do need something!!!
 

cautiouspilgrim

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#29
Yes, kill it. An answer to a question that nobody (CP wise) had asked. Responsible for flooding the market with barely trained wannabees and the watering down of core skills.

Local Council standards for DS folk (where the problem always lay)- endex
 

Tesla

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#30
Just a thought:-

Instead of ending it, why not in a down turn ecconomic environment make it cheaper to obtain pieces of plastic I of course refer to the SIA licence, a driving licence doesnt cost £245, so why should a piece of plastic registered with the SIA cost so much, and am sure that there will be a valid bunch of BS list for this, but still, in its simple form,


£245 for a plastic card :confused::rolleyes:

Solution then LOWER THE COST :D its always about money isnt it.
 
G

Gabi

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#31
Since we seem to be governed by Brussels, and the SIA licence doesn't hold much water outside UK, maybe they should just have one Authority for the whole of EU, rather than member countries having their own individual licences. Since people move around within the EU, it may be more practical to have a European standard so that everyone is singing off the same box. In that way they would save money, but still retain a Authority that covers the EU. It certainly would help those who are moving around with their principals, not having to worry if they are adhering to that countries licencing laws.
 

Carl Dowd

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#32
Just a thought:-

Instead of ending it, why not in a down turn ecconomic environment make it cheaper to obtain pieces of plastic I of course refer to the SIA licence, a driving licence doesnt cost £245, so why should a piece of plastic registered with the SIA cost so much, and am sure that there will be a valid bunch of BS list for this, but still, in its simple form,


£245 for a plastic card :confused::rolleyes:

Solution then LOWER THE COST :D its always about money isnt it.
Tesla.. you make a good and reasonable point, but do you realise that the SIA knows it has been overcharging for the Licence. It knows that it has robbed this industry blind... Why would you want anything to do with this in anywhere near the same format..?

Good riddance to them, go now, stay away and my offer still stands to carry their bags to the dole office.
 

SCT

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#33
Since we seem to be governed by Brussels, and the SIA licence doesn't hold much water outside UK, maybe they should just have one Authority for the whole of EU, rather than member countries having their own individual licences. Since people move around within the EU, it may be more practical to have a European standard so that everyone is singing off the same box. In that way they would save money, but still retain a Authority that covers the EU. It certainly would help those who are moving around with their principals, not having to worry if they are adhering to that countries licencing laws.
I agree with the principle of this. Standards in many EU countries are FAR higher than in the UK. The SIA training courses are a lot of bollocks and bear no relation to reality, attract the wrong type of person and give the muppets the mistaken idea that, once they have completed a course that a 6 month old retarded chimpanzee could pass, then know what they are doing :eek:

There is no reason why a europe wide licence could not be introduced. This is one time where the European Commission could be actually useful :)

PS. To the muppet I worked with the other week: Conflict Management DOES NOT mean that you cause a conflict and then piss off and leave others to manage the conflict you caused
 
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Carl Dowd

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#34
I agree with the principle of this. Standards in many EU countries are FAR higher than in the UK. The SIA training courses are a lot of bollocks and bear no relation to reality, attract the wrong type of person and give the muppets the mistaken idea that, once they have completed a course that a 6 month old retarded chimpanzee could pass, then know what they are doing :eek:

There is no reason why a europe wide licence could not be introduced. This is one time where the European Commission could be actually useful

PS. To the muppet I worked with the other week: Conflict Management DOES NOT mean that you cause a conflict and then piss off and leave others to manage the conflict you caused
Yes sorry about that mpctc but you must keep control of those bloody dogs mate..! :)
 

billy1000

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#35
I've voted the SIA should be axed (then replaced in my opinion).
However I do believe that with regards to DS and SG there should still be some form of control to maintain standards in terms of training and CRB checks.

As for CP I don't work in that area so I can't say what 'they' need to regain there previous standards/status.

All the best

Billy
 

tapmaster

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#36
One of the sad parts about this £245 quid that we pay for the license is that it is not an official piece of identification. Even though it is issued by a government agency, CRB Check, viewing of passport and other identifying documents to confirm address etc. The cost of the SIA is more than a passport.

I agree with Gabi that there should be a larger useage for the license so that it could be used in the EU states as most of us travel between states with clients etc.

Best Regards

Tapmaster
 

Oddjob

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#38
One of the sad parts about this £245 quid that we pay for the license is that it is not an official piece of identification. Even though it is issued by a government agency, CRB Check, viewing of passport and other identifying documents to confirm address etc. The cost of the SIA is more than a passport.

I agree with Gabi that there should be a larger useage for the license so that it could be used in the EU states as most of us travel between states with clients etc.

Best Regards

Tapmaster
I find the SIA badge to be very useful indeed.
You under estimate its breadth of influence Tapmaster.

It makes a great frost scraper on those icy mornings.
It helps apply more even pressure on a wound bandage.
It is very useful for scraping shit of your boots.
with the application of a bit of gum, its a handy nose guard when sun bathing. (international use)
A handy letter opener, even airmail (see international use again)
Handy for applying putty or filler to cracks etc.
There are 101 uses to the SIA card.
But when it comes to security, it says fcuk all that is of any use to any one as regards your ability.
Scrap it and revert to a nectar card, points mean prizes.
 
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#39
oddjob that made me laugh, Sia licence useful for scraping shit of your boots yeah that's True, to be Honest their is alot of good opinions Here, i suppose we're better off without it, and we've all been ripped off Badly.

there is alot of Horror stories about the Sia licence, and i don't agree with the Fees and applications Fee, come on who ever thought of that idea 250 pounds to send off you're licence jesus Hell we've paid for the courses and they land us with a application Fee joke complete Joke Sia sorry but alot of us have kids to feed
 

tapmaster

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#40
OJ you got me on that one mate. Laughing my arse off!! Thats a classic. I never thought of that.

Tapmaster
 
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