What a joke
- Thread starter ste999s
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David Platts
Longterm Registered User
you right there mate wouldnt get out of bed for that trobble is that some people would and thats whats make's people keep offering that kind of money and also keeping the standard low in security!!!!
I had a guy just yesterday afternoon call me about a "exclusive" club in London paying £10.00 an hour for CP Guys to work the door. I told the guy that for 10 an hour no CP Guy would do the job. Ann hour later the guy called me back and boasted that he had 16 who agreed to run the 3 venues.
Consider no parking in central london. So you have to take the bus and there is no train at 3am. then throw in paye, lunch etc and for a 8 hour shift you may get 80quid but after all of this what do you get? You end up making 40quid if your lucky. I live on the complete end of London and it would have taken 2 hours by bus if I was lucky.
As long as people will work for CHEAP then people will continue to pay peanuts.
Tapmaster
Consider no parking in central london. So you have to take the bus and there is no train at 3am. then throw in paye, lunch etc and for a 8 hour shift you may get 80quid but after all of this what do you get? You end up making 40quid if your lucky. I live on the complete end of London and it would have taken 2 hours by bus if I was lucky.
As long as people will work for CHEAP then people will continue to pay peanuts.
Tapmaster
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AthenaIntelligence
Longterm Registered User
It may not be a good wage but ... it is a wage. There are so many people on this forum who complain about the lack of work and that they can't get a foot on the ladder. Well, these jobs may offer that initial foot on that ladder.
If the Terms and Conditions don't suit then don't take the job - but to criticise someone else who does is a bit unfair.
If the Terms and Conditions don't suit then don't take the job - but to criticise someone else who does is a bit unfair.
David Platts
Longterm Registered User
they maywell offer the foot in the door as you say but they could at the very least offer a disent wage to go with it.
I bet the company who is paying these wages are making a hafety mark up which to me does not seem fair. I know everyone has there price but if there's a certain amount of risk involved there should be a good wage on offer.
I bet the company who is paying these wages are making a hafety mark up which to me does not seem fair. I know everyone has there price but if there's a certain amount of risk involved there should be a good wage on offer.
AthenaIntelligence
Longterm Registered User
David - I can empathise with your frustrations but there are many factors at play...
Firstly, they are mostly not making a killing. When you consider costs of recruitment, kitting out, back office costs, NI/PAYE contibutions, insurances, marketing etc etc - which all must be covered, the real 'mark up' and margin is often slim. Employers are - in 99% of cases - not simply living off the toil of their workers but have often exposed themselves to a large amount of business, financial and personal risk in order to establish a credible business. This risk, although often not a physical one, must also be recompensed/recognised or the business fails and everyone is out of a job.
Also - it is a case of supply and demand. If there were a million GPs available for work and a small number of patients then GP salaries would be smaller. The same equation exists for DS/CP/surveillance and other jobs in this industry. We all get annoyed about the number of providers out there and we all get angry about the fact that standards may be in question, but the fact is - the market doesnt always see it like that and if a DS is available for £6 per hour against another who wants £15 per hour, then the Client will often choose to take the risk, and that is their call.
If people want higher wages, then they must compete in a niche sector - whatever that sector may be - or offer a specialist service that a Client deems as added value over the competition.
It may not be fair but it is market forces.
Firstly, they are mostly not making a killing. When you consider costs of recruitment, kitting out, back office costs, NI/PAYE contibutions, insurances, marketing etc etc - which all must be covered, the real 'mark up' and margin is often slim. Employers are - in 99% of cases - not simply living off the toil of their workers but have often exposed themselves to a large amount of business, financial and personal risk in order to establish a credible business. This risk, although often not a physical one, must also be recompensed/recognised or the business fails and everyone is out of a job.
Also - it is a case of supply and demand. If there were a million GPs available for work and a small number of patients then GP salaries would be smaller. The same equation exists for DS/CP/surveillance and other jobs in this industry. We all get annoyed about the number of providers out there and we all get angry about the fact that standards may be in question, but the fact is - the market doesnt always see it like that and if a DS is available for £6 per hour against another who wants £15 per hour, then the Client will often choose to take the risk, and that is their call.
If people want higher wages, then they must compete in a niche sector - whatever that sector may be - or offer a specialist service that a Client deems as added value over the competition.
It may not be fair but it is market forces.
While you make salient and strong points Athena; employers prey upon that very attitude of 'its not a good wage, but its a wage'.
In the case of the security industry I would have to suggest that the market forces have been proliferated by the industry itself; when companies are constantly undercutting others the service buyers have had a precedent set to them of low prices and so simply refuse to pay a decent price to the companies that demand it and offer a higher quality service.
In the case of the security industry I would have to suggest that the market forces have been proliferated by the industry itself; when companies are constantly undercutting others the service buyers have had a precedent set to them of low prices and so simply refuse to pay a decent price to the companies that demand it and offer a higher quality service.
AthenaIntelligence
Longterm Registered User
I agree. It is a sad side effect of the SIA and the Awarding Bodies' commercial attitude that took a niche industry and made it mainstream for anyone with a few hundred quid to spend on a training course.
I use the GP analogy again to draw comparison.... If one could become a 'licensed' GP without many years toil, study and experience and get certified on the back of a short course for a few hundred quid, then what would we expect of GP services...and what salary could GPs expect to gain in return? Granted, the cream eventually rises to the surface, but the sector flounders for a period until it stabilises.
manninghr4
Full Registered User
They will be employing monkeys next.
i thought they already did! some of the sights i see employed by some of the security companies, make me cringe. i dont know how many times ive had the conversation with managers etc about if it where my company i wouldnt have half the sh1t they have working for them working for me. when supervising myself i have very high standards , if the staff dont like the way i operate, i tell them to walk.
Athena Intelligence, Your comment written after mine is clearly directed at my comments. So as I respect your comment I would like one moment to present mine.
Your comments based upon mine are: It may not be a good wage but ... it is a wage. There are so many people on this forum who complain about the lack of work and that they can't get a foot on the ladder. Well, these jobs may offer that initial foot on that ladder.
If the Terms and Conditions don't suit then don't take the job - but to criticise someone else who does is a bit unfair.
Thisis the very reason that I personally said in that thread and what I have said to people when they call me for a CP Task and want to pay 10 quid an hour.
These jobs may offer a foot on that ladder? Please. It’s not a matter of getting a foot on A ladder it’s a matter of getting a foot on the correct ladder. Not every ladder leads up. I don’t critise others if the “UK Largest supplier of CP wants to offer you a CP role with the hope of another 8 an hour to follow. Yea get ur ladder
I know many people who got a foot on the ladder and got reamed out up the north by the alleged General from the gulf. I know one guy that is owed at this moment 15k. The reason he stays on the job is that his agency is dangling that It’s a wage, carrot dangling over his head.
You can almost guarantee that the company is not taking a cut in it’s profit margin. I was on a task a few days ago when the price paid just under 20 quid. Now many companies would have put a twenty quid on it and filled its coffers. As far as to criticise others if you want to get paid and act like a guerrilla in a suit then go ahead. No one is stopping you. Just keep dragging the industry down.
To me its not just a foot on a ladder it’s the right ladder.
Tapmaster
Your comments based upon mine are: It may not be a good wage but ... it is a wage. There are so many people on this forum who complain about the lack of work and that they can't get a foot on the ladder. Well, these jobs may offer that initial foot on that ladder.
If the Terms and Conditions don't suit then don't take the job - but to criticise someone else who does is a bit unfair.
Thisis the very reason that I personally said in that thread and what I have said to people when they call me for a CP Task and want to pay 10 quid an hour.
These jobs may offer a foot on that ladder? Please. It’s not a matter of getting a foot on A ladder it’s a matter of getting a foot on the correct ladder. Not every ladder leads up. I don’t critise others if the “UK Largest supplier of CP wants to offer you a CP role with the hope of another 8 an hour to follow. Yea get ur ladder
I know many people who got a foot on the ladder and got reamed out up the north by the alleged General from the gulf. I know one guy that is owed at this moment 15k. The reason he stays on the job is that his agency is dangling that It’s a wage, carrot dangling over his head.
You can almost guarantee that the company is not taking a cut in it’s profit margin. I was on a task a few days ago when the price paid just under 20 quid. Now many companies would have put a twenty quid on it and filled its coffers. As far as to criticise others if you want to get paid and act like a guerrilla in a suit then go ahead. No one is stopping you. Just keep dragging the industry down.
To me its not just a foot on a ladder it’s the right ladder.
Tapmaster
Its not even that. Before licenses were even issued there were companies who had gotten their employees trained up to the new SIA standard and were waiting for the roll out. They were advertising cut rate SIA compliant staff.
Quite simply too much of this industry exists for profit before quality and while the need for companies to make profit is not lost on me, these are companies who are charging £8ph to pay an employee minimum just to bag the contract. After all... It's a contract... Then they offer the job out to the potential employees saying "Well, its a wage... It's better than no wage!".
This industry is at the bottom of the barrel because of itself, not the SIA.
Hi guys,
I can see an arguement for both sides here, however it is all well and good getting any old person to work the job, but are you really getting the right person for the job.?
I worked in London in the early part of the decade pre SIA but council licences and some of the guys would panick at the first sign of trouble or would go the other way and resort to unneeded violence straight away....the end result is if you want quality and professionalism you have to pay a decent wage.
I no longer work as DS and haven't since then but truthfully I am shocked with the hourly wage you are talking about, I was on £9 - £10 an hour then and seemed the norm and that was 8 - 9 years ago..... the cost of everything has gone up, so I ask why is the wage lower now than it was then????
I can see an arguement for both sides here, however it is all well and good getting any old person to work the job, but are you really getting the right person for the job.?
I worked in London in the early part of the decade pre SIA but council licences and some of the guys would panick at the first sign of trouble or would go the other way and resort to unneeded violence straight away....the end result is if you want quality and professionalism you have to pay a decent wage.
I no longer work as DS and haven't since then but truthfully I am shocked with the hourly wage you are talking about, I was on £9 - £10 an hour then and seemed the norm and that was 8 - 9 years ago..... the cost of everything has gone up, so I ask why is the wage lower now than it was then????
manninghr4
Full Registered User
they will have monkeys on doors next.Just been looking on current vacancies and saw one for DS's required for new club. Wage ? £7 to £8 PAYE. Nearly pissed my pants. What a joke, people taking the piss again.(
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the 3 wise monkeysi knew lads working on the door 20 years ago getting £10 ph in their hands. i dont understand how a wage can stay so stagnant or go down in rate rather than rise
AthenaIntelligence
Longterm Registered User
There are battles you can win or lose. You choose which one to fight. I suggest that, in the short term, wages are going to remain lower than ever before. Market forces. Saturation. Supply/demand. Call it what you will. If you cannot deal with that, then stop crying about it - because you will not change it. MARSEC was once a spec role - now you can buy a Filipino for peanuts. So the ship owners may decide (as is their right) not to pay for a team of excellently trained, proficient Westerners. That may end in tears - it may not. Still, wages will fall.
Yes - Create a Union - is the call oft heard. That will certainly destroy the UK security industry just like Union Militancy has done for every other British Industry.
If the industry you chose to work in does not offer you what you want - then get another industry. Or specialise further - medic, dogs, IEDD take your pick.
When the first early settlers moved out West to dig for gold, the lucky few made a killing. Then every man jack had the same idea - and most lost everything. The same thing happened in the Security industry - it grew. The reasons can be debated and argued until you are blue in the face. The result remains the same. Less work, lower wages.
I ask those that sit there bitching really look deep inside themselves. If the industry is not kind to you - then get out and do something that makes you happier. If you feel hard done by - deal with it, attempt to better yourself and make yourself more valuable/employable etc and PROVE why you are worth more than you are being offered. If you are still getting nowhere - then get real, recognise the industry is not what is was when you joined ... and leave it.
I get pretty damn bad times as well - and I work through them. I sometimes get pissed off at the industry - but if I really felt things going nowhere, I would get out.
You are big lads now. Grow the feck up. Stop whingeing and make a decision but to be honest, the endless bleating about wages is really tiresome, militant and a little bit pathetic coming from people who claim to be able to influence things and be a 'cut above' the 'monkeys who work for peanuts'. Well, those monkeys are at least working.
I reckon I am worth a shit load more money than I may get paid - but obviously the market determines value - so I get what I can and if it was not enough I would either take a second job or leave the sector completely.
Yes - Create a Union - is the call oft heard. That will certainly destroy the UK security industry just like Union Militancy has done for every other British Industry.
If the industry you chose to work in does not offer you what you want - then get another industry. Or specialise further - medic, dogs, IEDD take your pick.
When the first early settlers moved out West to dig for gold, the lucky few made a killing. Then every man jack had the same idea - and most lost everything. The same thing happened in the Security industry - it grew. The reasons can be debated and argued until you are blue in the face. The result remains the same. Less work, lower wages.
I ask those that sit there bitching really look deep inside themselves. If the industry is not kind to you - then get out and do something that makes you happier. If you feel hard done by - deal with it, attempt to better yourself and make yourself more valuable/employable etc and PROVE why you are worth more than you are being offered. If you are still getting nowhere - then get real, recognise the industry is not what is was when you joined ... and leave it.
I get pretty damn bad times as well - and I work through them. I sometimes get pissed off at the industry - but if I really felt things going nowhere, I would get out.
You are big lads now. Grow the feck up. Stop whingeing and make a decision but to be honest, the endless bleating about wages is really tiresome, militant and a little bit pathetic coming from people who claim to be able to influence things and be a 'cut above' the 'monkeys who work for peanuts'. Well, those monkeys are at least working.
I reckon I am worth a shit load more money than I may get paid - but obviously the market determines value - so I get what I can and if it was not enough I would either take a second job or leave the sector completely.
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