William and Kate protection officer shot gun accidentally in unmarked car

[tapmaster]

Of course it happens in the states there Einstein. I never said it didn't. I simply said that during my time in my department and during my time as range officer then range master I said it never happened. If you read some of the earlier posts you understand where it came from. I have heard of people shooting one into the ground in front of them that called a burn off. What ever that is.

Funny and sad range story. We had a captain who couldn't hit a door from three feet. One day we were on the range and we were shooting some twenty five yard shots and the rounds were hitting the ground about ten feet in front of her. Let's say a private qualification was later had and she passed. We've all seen it or heard of it.

there is no such thing as accidental discharge with firearms. Some on here stated that no one is perfect. I had an accidental discharge once. I had a date with a girl about six years older than me when I was 18. Let me just say some things blew my mind and I mean literally. So my friendly weapon went off before it wanted to and it was mind blowing.

Now back to the main point. Negligent discharge is what I would call it no matter where in the world it happens or by who. It's insane to say " no one is perfect" that's insane. So my answer is don't join the armed division if you can't be responsible for your actions.

Banjo I love to hear it play especially Deliverance. I actually played Viola for four years and violin for another three years. I stopped before I came to UK. One of my favorite films of all times.

Got an email from someone on the forum that put this whole debate in perspective. I appreciate that and that's what friends do.

tapmaster

 

[tapmaster]

I'd like to tell a couple quick stories. One lives and another dies.

I know a guy from a different department who was a tactical officer or SWAT as it's called now. They had been out on a situation and they were cleaning their weapons, for some reason he goes hot (chambers a round) decides to dry fire some more and pointed it at his big toe and BOOM shot goes off toe bleeding like hell. I know the guy personally. He's a police chief now hahahahahahahahahahahahah

second scenario in the class room there are no loaded weapons for firearms training. NONE including the instructor. The guy was doing some type training with the class and BOOM shot goes off hits the target right in the centre of the chest. She DIES!!!! He stood there crying about it that bullet will never ever go back. if you did some research you could find it on google if your interested it's tragic. He loses his job and finally now is back in law enforcement. He shouldn't be allowed to be a police officer ever again he should have gone to prison as no one knows the rules better than him. Nothing personal but as I say I know the guy. He called himself Action Jackson.

I know another guy who was on in the line or the train as it's called for entry. A round goes off and hits one of the guys in the thigh. Accidental discharge? No Negligent Discharge!!! The guy survives leave swat team as he had lost some mobility from losing so much muscle tissue.

So as you say no one is perfect that's a joke. If you say a toggle got into his holster and ties itself around the trigger I'm telling you it's not possible. I'm not upset or angry as you say. But we look at things from different eyes. You can say toggle you can say no one is perfect. We disagree and we will never agree on it.

This is the reason I left law enforcement. I'm glad I did. With dealing with this thread I am happy I quit.

tapmaster

 

[Oasis]

Against my better judgement, and at the risk of incurring some hot air, I feel compelled to comment on this thread,
I have to say that, contrary to any misconceptions about UK police firearms use/misuse, if the Captain described was in the UK police she wouldn't be allowed to carry a gun. Captain or constable, if you can't pass the very high standards imposed you won't get a gun. What happens when the Police Captain draws her weapon at an incident and shoots an innocent bystander by mistake?
Who will stand up in court and swear on oath that she passed the firearms test with accuracy? THE FIREARMS INSTRUCTOR? Where's the integrity in that? Lets not be hypocritical. No body in all my time in the police (incidentally 21yrs as a firearms officer, 32yrs in all) would ever get away with failing a firearms qualification or requal if they didn't achieve the minimum standard, no matter who your mates were.
That is probably one of the main reasons that UK police officers do not routinely carry guns, because our standards are so high that not every copper could achieve or maintain them.
Therefore, no matter how good they might be at policing, detecting, commanding, supervising, public order, driving or any of the other important specialisms found within the police, if you can't pass the stringent firearms requirements, you won't be authorised to carry a gun! End of...
Now that means, we either issue firearms only to specially selected officers who are competent and comfortable with guns or sack everyone who can't. Thus we would soon have a UK police made up of expert firearms officers, and nobody to do the other specialisms. Marvellous, we can't detect a crime but boy can we put on a wild west show.
Contrary to what you might think about the UK Police, we take our firearms very seriously. That's why we don't give them to 12 year olds, no matter how mature and sexually active they are.

Only when the facts fully emerge will we know how the ND occurred, but since he had the weapon out and it was pointed at the floor, chances are he was 'making safe', possibly prior to stowing/storing his weapon. I make no comment about his training, lack of expertise or professionalism. For all I know he might have had a heart attack, epileptic fit or a toggle attack I WASN'T THERE. I do know that on completion of the level of training required to be an armed CPO in the UK, the urge to play or fiddle with your gun is pretty low on your list of priorities alongside sleep, eat, talk sex and sport..... and anyone who did piss around with his gun would be sorted out and moved on pretty quickly by supervision or peer pressure. As a matter of interest, most CPOs are over 35 and often older, and 'gun nuts' are usually laughed out of the unit.

I disagree that the Glock is the safest weapon, the SIG 226 was favoured by SF for years and it was my weapon for 10 years. I never heard of an ND with the SIG, although I'm sure it happened somewhere. There is no safety catch on it but every shot is double action, and the weapon is very easy to strip and make safe. Unfortunately UK police, although reasonably well equipped, would not necessarily be issued with 'Uncle Benny's Never Fail, tight as your skin, nuthin' gets in' holsters, and although I want to make it absolutely clear that we do not believe they were involved on this occasion, toggles do exist, and CPOs are expected to wear a variety of 'plain clothes' to fit in with their role or environment on the task.
In all my time there were many reasons to take out your weapon other than to shoot someone, including wardrobe malfunctions.
I once had a belt that snapped for no good reason, I know, I'm sure that in some countries "Good belts never snap", but mine once did. Shit does happen.
I have no reason to make excuses for the "Highly skilled CPO at the pinnacle of his career", I am just reacting to some of the remarks that touched a nerve.
No doubt I will wish I hadn't but I'm going away for a few days to where there is no internet so perhaps you won't hear from me again on this subject.
Oh and incidentally DWTD, they wouldn't have been guarding an "empty pad quarter"

 

[Sabre]

Another ND?.

A shooting at a Glasgow Police Station today -

A police officer has died in a shooting at a Glasgow police station.

A statement from Strathclyde Police confirmed that the officer had been killed at the Baird Street Police Station today.

Sky News understands no-one else is being sought in connection with the incident.

Assistant Chief Constable Bernard Higgins said: "It is with great sadness that I have to tell you that a serving Strathclyde Police officer died today, Monday, 5 November, in an incident where a firearm was discharged at Baird Street Police Office.

"No details of the officer involved will be released until family members have been informed."

He added: "Our thoughts are with the officer’s family and friends at this difficult time."

An investigation into the death is already underway, carried out by officers from another force - Lothian and Borders Police

 

[Deleted member 33]

That will be an ND then!

Sorry...another ND then



Rich H

 

[Carl Dowd]

That will be an ND then!

Sorry...another ND then





Rich H

or deliberate? poor bugger!

CD
(MSG for you Rich at other means)

 

[Sworks]

Rich H is that supposed to be funny?

Look inside of your self please mate, I find that comment disgusting and very unprofessional.

Moderator can we get that reply removed, please?

 

[tapmaster]

no further comment on the matter.......................................................................................

tapmaster

 

[Deleted member 33]

Not meant to be funny at all swords.

It is a travesty that this sort of thing is going on. What is the problem? Training? Individual selection?

The list of Uk armed police having ND's (because that is what they are) is alarmingly and shockingly too high. We can't all speak on the individual merits of each and every incident of course but as you have already rightly pointed out yourself they occur due to the occurrence of load/ unload/ make safe.

Putting such incidents of leaving weapons in the odd Starbucks and dropping weapons during an embus aside, not to mention second rounds being fired in the attempt to clear after ND'ing the first (and on the Queens train) the actual symptom very much appears to be lack of concentration - after all, it is user error each and every time 99% of the time...

If the competence of armed officers is brought into question then maybe they shouldn't be given the responsibility of condition 1...



Rich H

 

[hippy]

Lets be honest here, an ND, or whatever the politically correct and current term is, happens due to, in 99% of cases, 'user error'
In other words, mishandling the firearm. Very, very few are caused by malfunctions.
So, if PC X has discharged his weapon, unintentionally it is more than likely due to his actions. Therefore, unless it is shown that there was a malfunction, then PC X should not be carrying a weapon until such time as he has been reassessed and retrained.

 

[Brengunner]

Sadly during this thread concerning NDs it seems another ND has happened and taken the life of an individual, very sad.

I agree with Tap and Rich with their individual comments they have made on this and its down to i suppose the mindset and training which has been installed into them during their careers, there is no excuse for NDs and if it were to be a weapon malfunction then happy days you cannot do anymore than point the weapon in a safe direction.

Around the world there will be NDs and this will no doubt be most part to a persons nature and training, i have hurd of situations where uk police officers will get given many opportunities to pass or re-take their weapons tests, maybe this is a part of whats wrong, in my mind unless proved to a weapon malfunction if you ND at anytime you shouldnt be part of a specialist unit, end of!

As far as the police regular skills tests (correct terminology not used) you should be re-tested and you should be able to pass first time, no second chances, if the training is correct and the police officer has the correct apptitude for weapons then he/she will pass everytime, anyone else should be weeded out in my mind of any weapon handling unit worldwide!

If individuals are failing its either department training or individual abilities letting them down, either way somethings not right given the amount of NDs happening!

As far as certain individuals within our police force being the ultimate professionals with weapons??? sadly i dont find this 100% of truth, ive done a fair bit of shooting with people who are firearms and personally some of them are shocking and mainly i noticed this was more to do with a professional attitude more than anything else.

Im proud of all which is Brittish and there are alot of professionals out there, but i wont pretend to be nieve enough to think that there are not problems within the structure surrounding these types of units, ive seen and hurd enough by people who have left units like these who are just tired of seeing lower standards, of course there are those who will believe that the "oldens" are leaving because they dont like change and then there will be those who are coming into the units beleiving they are the new generation who are better?????????

People will think what they like, i myself am fully aware that there are problems which need addressing, come to think of it its not just this area which needs addressing, the whole bloody country does, from how we treat and punish young offenders to our welfare system to our firearm units etc etc its all a concern.

Cheers Brengunner

 

[Deleted member 33]

It could be training but to be honest I would bet on it being one or a combination of the following:

1. Complacency
2. Tiredness
3. Lack of concentration
4. Rushing


All encompassing negligence.



Rich H

 

[tapmaster]

Finally some others see what we are saying is true. When I was firearms instructor I always promised myself and the people who I trained to listed to me and to follow the training program which always including the range rules where they would sign off that we trained and they understood. I never wanted that to happen while I was on the range or see someone get shot over negligence. I'm sorry I have no patience for it as if someone is killed you live with it for the rest of your life. Who want's to carry that around?

Those of you who say that no one is perfect or a toggle got into the trigger guard I'm sorry to say won't hold water in court. They subpoena your weapons, your training files, etc and they will use it against you in court. Modern weapons don't misfire, even if you drop them. This is where the weapons testing from the instructors comes in. If for example you are using a Makarov or a Takarov or something like this I would for certain say no! But if your talking Glock, Sig, S&W etc then your safe even if it hits the ground as it has a hammer block built it for things like this.

Even modern rifles if dropped won't fire. Again, this is where having a review of weapons and experts to test them. All of these things are taken into consideration. Even things like the calibre of weapons to be tested.

I personally like the .38 super or 10 mm S&W one for backup and one for holster on the side as primary. In some cases the .38 Super is enough. I like as well the .40 calibre round. All these rounds are great rounds. Even the parabellum in Glock is an amazing round. I used to shoot parabellum in Colt Rifle AR style rifle. Keep in mind that was 10 years ago.

When I go back I'm going to buy both of them in the same day .38super, 10mm and possibly an AR-15 M4. I also like the .45 ACP round that's called KRISS as it has an excellent ability to keep the muzzle down when you shoot. These pistol rounds as they are often called hit five times harder than their pistol counter parts.

tapmaster

 

[Oasis]

I shouldn't let it bother me but I am getting a bit fed up with this, have you lot heard yourselves???
Just hearing about NDs from the UK police is enough to send you all into a world of speculation, condemnation and accusation.
Brengunner, just because you've heard about 2 NDs occurring this year, suddenly its reached 'epidemic proportions', with 'Lowered Standards', and "Oldens" (sic) leaving in their droves because standards have slipped. Absolute bollocks!
I get the impression that in your private life you are surrounded by disgruntled Ex AFOs (authorised firearms officers) who have 'Had enough'. I think you were nearer the mark when you said 'They just don't like changes'. In fact the older you get the harder it is to pass the fitness test and the very high standard of accuracy required, and you get politely but firmly kicked off.
Following the tragic death of a police officer in training, things have indeed changed, with the emphasis being on SAFETY.
Doesn't the fact that every ND appears in the news tell it's own story. IT HAS RARITY VALUE.

And I quote;
**** "and its down to i suppose the mindset and training which has been installed into them during their careers" ***

What are you on about? What 'Mindset and training' is this that's been 'installed' in them?
Are they 'trained' or is it 'installed' in them to be Negligent or to have a cavalier attitude towards weapons safety? REALLY?
You are either ill informed or just driving home the boot.

Everyday, 3 times a day, 365 days a year, armed police officers are changing over their weapons in 43 police forces in the UK, in fact, in most cases 2 weapons SLP and carbine.
Manchester has about 5 ARVs (Armed Response Vehicles) each with at least 2 armed officers, and between them possibly a Sgt.
Even at a conservative estimate, that's a minimum of 30 'handovers' a day, unloading and making safe, reloading etc etc (I assume you know the drills). Multiply that by 43 police forces, add in the Armed Protection Officers such as SO1, SO14 and the DPG, some crime squads and specialist firearms teams on Operations, AFOs at Airports etc etc, even discounting smaller forces who have less firearms officers, you are looking at thousands of potential NDs, all day everyday!!!!
You hear about 2 (and one of them may yet prove not to be 'accidental') and you rush like sharks to a feeding frenzy, any chance to have a poke at the cops, even though they are largely unarmed and probably the safest police force in the world.
Yes they have NDs, very occasionally the wrong person gets shot, check the figures, compare it with elsewhere in the world.
The UK police firearms selection and training is, like it or not, one of the most stringent and demanding in the world, ask the Coppers who are ex military but still failed it!! Even if you have spent 15 or 20 years routinely carrying weapons in the military, it still doesn't mean you will have what it takes to pass the Police Firearms course, and that's just the bottom rung of the ladder in police firearms training.
You are misinformed about the re qualification shoots as well. If you fail once you are given another chance, but your firearms authority is suspended until you pass the shoot (Compare that against ALL the other police forces in the world). It is done under strict supervision and all the details are recorded meticulously because if anything goes wrong all the details will become EVIDENCE in court or at an inquest.
The criteria and the standard of accuracy is already very high (far higher than anything the military demand of their 'Authorised firearms personnel') if it was any stricter there wouldn't be any bloody armed police on the streets. That might please armed criminals, who seem to prefer to take on unarmed and/or female police officers.
Tap Master
UK police officers ALWAYS read and sign the range rules, every time they go on the range, non of us has 'Patience' for 'people getting shot by negligence' or any other means, especially on the range!!!, and as for no one is perfect or 'toggles not holding water in court', they do 'hold water in court', if you accept that they are the reason a shot was fired then there is clearly no 'malice afore thought' or a deliberate act.
By all means have a go at the cops, there are plenty of good reasons to criticise them, but get your facts right, (god knows, under 'Police Freedom of Information' you can apply for all the stats on NDs, Police firearms tests and even their bloody shoe sizes, and don't just use it as an excuse to bang on about 'Guns n Ammo' and how sloppy our armed police are and don't necessarily put to much faith in what you hear from the odd disgruntled FAFO (Failed Firearms Officer).
For the record, what happens when somebody has an ND in the military? Courts Martial, required to resign, Put on charge moved to an 'unarmed unit'? Does it get a mention in the National Press?

 

[Deleted member 33]

Oasis - what's your point?



Rich H

 

[Oasis]

Hi Rich, sorry mate, I've said all I wanted to say.

 

[Deleted member 33]

Hi Rich, sorry mate, I've said all I wanted to say.

From what you write I'm reading it that with regards to the proportionality of numbers in terms of numbers of AFO's that the resultant number of firearms discharges whereby they are 'unintentional' is acceptable?

The Police R&DPG (and AFO's) do have a difficult role not least due to the widespread reporting the media conducts when things go wrong. However, I don't deem this as a 'bad thing'. Of course mistakes do occur, after all, we are all human and mistakes are inherent to our gene makeup (excluding myself of course! )

But, do you not agree that even the one incident whereby a firearm has been discharged 'unintentionally' is one too many? I only ask due to the impression I get, as well as others, that both you and 'Sworks' are supporting the acts as the 'odd mistake' etc.

I don't get it. If the Police incorporated a fundamental rule of one ND and you're out (as long as it was proven that no weapon malfunction of toggle was influential) then it wouldn't be so bad and I would lean more to the side of both your reasoning.




Rich H

 

[Oasis]

OK, you've drawn me;
No I do not think an ND is OK. I'm not supporting the 'odd mistake', my point was that these things are thankfully rare, and given the amount of weapons handling going on, on a day to day basis, a lot rarer than some people appear to believe;
and that quite simply, as a result of this particular ND a lot of ill informed people were very quick to start criticising Police Training and weapons skills, put some wheels on the band wagon and set it rolling.
I'm interested in putting the record straight in relation to Police firearms training not justifying an ND.
I don't disagree about 1 ND and you're out, on the contrary, who wants to work around guns with anyone who is unsafe?
That said, every case should be looked at and dealt with according to the prevailing circumstances.
I was once involved in a murder enquiry where a shop owner plotted up in his own shop one night, armed with a very old .410 shotgun, because he was fed up of being burgled. The weapon went off by accident at least once in the evening while he was waiting, and later when a burglar did try to get in, he was shot at point blank range in the head, resulting in his death. The shop keeper claimed that the weapon had gone off by accident while he was pointing it at the burglar. The weapon was examined by an armorer who declared that the weapon was capable of 'going off on its own' and the shop keeper was acquitted of murder.
Hurrah! I hear you say.
Nor am I suggesting that a weapons malfunction was responsible for the R&DPG ND, or toggle tangle, the point is we don't know and shouldn't necessarily be so quick to condemn. Like wise the death of the Police Officer in Glasgow might well turn out not to be an ND. It may be that the officer took his own life, no doubt we will find out in due course, but hopefully that won't spark off a debate on the psychological fitness and psychometric testing of our already beleaguered Armed Police Officers.

 

[Callmedave]

At the risk of open humiliation and diatribe I will open the other side on this, having been personally involved in such an event. Aside from the terminology I have a very clear take on the act, I was negligent full stop. Whilst there are mitigating factors such as a combination of jet lag, fever, too long a gap between operational deployments and just about every other hurdle involved, for two seconds I forgot the condition of my firearm.

My ND and the most catastrophic error I have ever made. It occurred during a loading / unloading drill. Nobody was physically at risk for the simple reason that despite being in a sub-tropical dump, the basics in terms of range safety were stringently followed. The contributing factors Rich mentioned are nothing more than that but I fully agree with the comment that I was negligent, it was not an accident, it was not an unintentional ooops, negligence with a capital N and the gravest of mistakes. This is also coming on the back of near on 20 years of overt and covert armed duties not to mention being RMQ in the Army so safety is engrained in the brain. I had even ensured that I had gone to the range and qualified four days prior as I knew it had been on the outer margins of acceptable timing between shoots.

No mechanical failure, pure organic and something that should never have happened. Fact is it did and will continue to do so as long as humans are involved, hence why the situation surrounding such events are equally if not more important with procedures being implemented that acknowledges that it can happen and makes all efforts to minimise the impact. Based on my own experience I am also a firm advocate of withdrawal from such duties and re-training / qualification not only as a show of due care by the force involved but also for the person involved to build confidence again, mine took a huge knock as you cannot understand why you did what you did – professionals do not make such mistakes right??.

You know bloody well how it happened technically, understanding why you differed from the thousands of previous times on this one occasion is the drama. I still have the shell casing, I see it every day though not on display for others – it is a private reminder that I am not infallible and I need to check, check and check again on everything I do.
It reminded me of a guy who I worked with a long time ago who had just been removed from an RMP CP Team for ventilating the ceiling of his accommodation, I finally really understood the shame he felt when he was thrown back on the trash heap after being ripped to shreds by the lions. Nothing less was accepted or expected. Having said that, if someone ND’s whilst Wyatt Earp..ing then there is not a strong enough response.

In the case that started this thread I have no idea how it happened and will not even speculate, all I will say is that it does not only happen to unprofessional muppets who are arsing about but unless a technical issue, there is never an excuse, only differing scales of potentially extenuating circumstances that the competent bodies involved need to assess, however there will always be an N in ND.

 

[Oasis]

Brave shout mate. Good on you.