Some interesting and obviously well informed comment.
Just a question on the above quote, i take it re-qual is merely the taking and passing of a proficiency test as opposed to actual time on range?
Regards
Daz
Round point VS hollow point bullets
- Thread starter Team13-Security
- Start date
Some interesting and obviously well informed comment.
Just a question on the above quote, i take it re-qual is merely the taking and passing of a proficiency test as opposed to actual time on range?
Regards
Daz
Rapier, not the case mate. We do two requals a year however most of us have weapons for PPW and are not AFO's. Our AFO's also only requal twice yearly but do attend lots of training in between.UK Police have to requalify more often than that, and attend tactal refreshers.
M
Dave, what more info do you want and i will supply? I think i mentioned it was a ruger and yes it was a speed six because we had not gone to the GP100 yet.(not that everyone got them) They were all in .357 mag but were used with the .38sp round. The round was a 125gr soft nose in .38sp +p. If i remember correctly the magnum round was withdrawn due to the excessive recoil and replaced with the .38. I believe that no unit blacks/ebonys/scarlets etc kept the magnum rounds for a particular purpose once these had been replaced but i can check this easily. Please let me know what extra info you need and i will supply. Infact if you know members from the Blacks ask them and they will supply you with the officers name(very well known) who was involved and you could check the details yourself. Just to clarify the three soft nose rounds ALL exited the organic sandbag hit by them. Two via torso, one via arm. Not particularly good for the one shot stop percentages. Perhaps they were using HP's.
Cheers All
M
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Hi,
I have found that the eliminator round is the best, for the men out there that do not know the eliminator round, it is a hollow point but has a plastic tip in the front.It travels like a ballpoint but has the Punch of a hollow point. they can also pierce standard fests at close range.
I have found that the eliminator round is the best, for the men out there that do not know the eliminator round, it is a hollow point but has a plastic tip in the front.It travels like a ballpoint but has the Punch of a hollow point. they can also pierce standard fests at close range.
A million answers come to mind however knowing our authorities i agree.Sorry Mali, I was talking about the Met. You know, a decent police force.
M
Nic, sounds like a balistic tip i use in some of my rifles. I take it the plastic aids the exspansion of the round? Or does it serve some other purpose?
M
The Eliminator was made by NGA (New Generation Ammunition) in South Africa. When it was marketed in the US it had a name change: the Sentry. It is a solid copper bullet that is nickel plated. The plastic serves only to facilitate feeding in an autoloader and is supposed to come off in flight. Below you can see three of these rounds that I fired in a ballistic tank in Natal in 2004:
When these rounds first came out, the blue cap was associated with cartridges loaded to a much higher pressure compared to the red. After that, the cap colours were interchangeable.
The bullets were 60gn and 80gn varieties IIRC.
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What's the score?
If I'm not mistaken Gorilla you've copied and pasted a lot of your aforementioned reply.
I am not an expert on ammunition so I wanted a more detailed explanation of your reply to mts.
But when I googled it I found that your post is almost exactly the same as from a couple of other websites.
On this section of your above reply you say
'The purpose of the hollow point is to generate a larger wound channel which serves 2 purposes.
First, a larger wound channel creates more "shock" to the unlucky guy`s nervous system ... which debilitates him.
Second, the larger wound channel creates a larger source of blood loss with minimal chance of clotting to stop blood flow.'
this is what I found on Yahoo answers.com. It is exactly the same phrase written by a hunter except that you have changed the animal section to fit for a person. If I'm not much mistaken you've been at it with the old copy and paste!!
How does a JHP (jacketed hollow point) bullet work? - Yahoo! Answers
Best Answer - Chosen by Voters
Bound's hubby here:
A properly constructed hollow point, used on an appropriate target, will not explode or disintigrate. If the hollow point "explodes", you have either used a hollow point designed for thin skinned varmints on a thick skinned target, or you fired the hollow point at a higher velocity than it was designed for.
You have two types of hollow point: a performance hollow point (designed to expand on game) and a ballistic hollow point (designed to form a "perfect" bullet tip to maximize the ballistic co-efficient [accuracy] of the bullet).
In theory, a ballistic hollow point (such as Sierra's Match King match bullet) will not open up (mushroom) when it hits a flesh target ... small hole in ... small hole out.
A performance hollow point (hunting hollow point) actually starts to expand because of a "hydro-static" reaction to the animal's body fluids. As the hollow point engages the body fluids, the hollow point expands/mushrooms to perhaps more than twice the original diameter of the bullet.
The purpose of the hollow point is to generate a larger wound channel which serves 2 purposes. First, a larger wound channel creates more "shock" to the animals nervous system ... which debilitates the animal. Second, the larger wound channel creates a larger source of blood loss with minimal chance of clotting to stop blood flow.
If a hollow point should exit the body, they mushroomed bullet actually minimizes the chance of a ricochet, because of a decrease of remaining energy (due to energy transfer) and a less rounded surface that would facilitate deflection of the bullet upon a hard surface.
Source(s):
Master class competitive rifleman with 30+ years experience.
Look at the word shock in speech marks and amount of full stops used after 'nervous system.' And where the commas are placed.
Here is another quote from old Gorilla!
'A supersonic full metal-jacketed rifle bullet will produce a cylindrical cavity until it begins to tumble due to the velocity loss'
Then I googled it again. I found the same phrase used in How a High Speed Bullet Damages an Organ by Dr Kenneth A, Rahn's Sr own website.
[URL="http://karws.gso.uri.edu/jfk/scientific_topics/wound_ballistics/How_a_high-speed.html"][URL="http://karws.gso.uri.edu/jfk/scientific_topics/wound_ballistics/How_a_high-speed.html"][URL="http://karws.gso.uri.edu/jfk/scientific_topics/wound_ballistics/How_a_high-speed.html"][URL="http://karws.gso.uri.edu/jfk/scientific_topics/wound_ballistics/How_a_high-speed.html"][URL="http://karws.gso.uri.edu/jfk/scientific_topics/wound_ballistics/How_a_high-speed.html"][URL="http://karws.gso.uri.edu/jfk/scientific_topics/wound_ballistics/How_a_high-speed.html"][URL="http://karws.gso.uri.edu/jfk/scientific_topics/wound_ballistics/How_a_high-speed.html"][URL="http://karws.gso.uri.edu/jfk/scientific_topics/wound_ballistics/How_a_high-speed.html"][url]http://karws.gso.uri.edu/jfk/scientific_topics/wound_ballistics/How_a_high-speed.html[/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL]
'A full metal-jacketed rifle bullet will produce a cylindrical cavity until it begins to tumble.'
Again that has to have been copied and pasted.. it has just been given a little poetic licence...lol..
Just to prove that these aren't just a couple of coincidences. Here is more. Old Gorilla explains the fineries of the damage ammunition will cause.
'This pressure may produce injuries to blood vessels, or organs that are a long distance from the path of the slug. Fractures and other nasty medical conditions can occur even without direct contact between the bone and a rifle bullet.'
Here is Dr Rahn's quote..
' This pressure may produce injuries to blood vessels, nerves, or organs that are a considerable distance from the path of the bullet. Fractures can occur even without direct contact between the bone and a rifle bullet.'
Now Gorilla, I was wondering whether to stick this on the Walter Muppet Section?
What's your response? Hee, hee!
Scuffer.
Sure no problem...
The purpose of the hollow point is to generate a larger wound channel which serves 2 purposes.
First, a larger wound channel creates more "shock" to the unlucky guy`s nervous system ... which debilitates him.
Second, the larger wound channel creates a larger source of blood loss with minimal chance of clotting to stop blood flow.
Translation:You`re hit in the shoulder by a hollow point and depending on the calibre chances are your arm is gone.
A supersonic full metal-jacketed rifle bullet will produce a cylindrical cavity until it begins to tumble due to the velocity loss.(That`s when the fun starts).But beeing a supersonic slug chances are it will pass trough your body BEFORE having time to loose the speed..leaving a minimal entry wound and a slighty larger exit wound .
We are not talking here about the high-velocity centerfire rifles because if you use a 7.62x51mm M40 like round..Then that`s a different story..
Local pressures on the order of 200 atm or even greater may ocure. This pressure may produce injuries to blood vessels, or organs that are a long distance from the path of the slug. Fractures and other nasty medical conditions can occur even without direct contact between the bone and a rifle bullet.
Having said that (I fried half of my neourons trying to put it in a clear english) i just realized that bullets CAN BE DANGEROUS and i changed my mind.
I rather NOT GETTING SHOT at all
If I'm not mistaken Gorilla you've copied and pasted a lot of your aforementioned reply.
I am not an expert on ammunition so I wanted a more detailed explanation of your reply to mts.
But when I googled it I found that your post is almost exactly the same as from a couple of other websites.
On this section of your above reply you say
'The purpose of the hollow point is to generate a larger wound channel which serves 2 purposes.
First, a larger wound channel creates more "shock" to the unlucky guy`s nervous system ... which debilitates him.
Second, the larger wound channel creates a larger source of blood loss with minimal chance of clotting to stop blood flow.'
this is what I found on Yahoo answers.com. It is exactly the same phrase written by a hunter except that you have changed the animal section to fit for a person. If I'm not much mistaken you've been at it with the old copy and paste!!
How does a JHP (jacketed hollow point) bullet work? - Yahoo! Answers
Best Answer - Chosen by Voters
Bound's hubby here:
A properly constructed hollow point, used on an appropriate target, will not explode or disintigrate. If the hollow point "explodes", you have either used a hollow point designed for thin skinned varmints on a thick skinned target, or you fired the hollow point at a higher velocity than it was designed for.
You have two types of hollow point: a performance hollow point (designed to expand on game) and a ballistic hollow point (designed to form a "perfect" bullet tip to maximize the ballistic co-efficient [accuracy] of the bullet).
In theory, a ballistic hollow point (such as Sierra's Match King match bullet) will not open up (mushroom) when it hits a flesh target ... small hole in ... small hole out.
A performance hollow point (hunting hollow point) actually starts to expand because of a "hydro-static" reaction to the animal's body fluids. As the hollow point engages the body fluids, the hollow point expands/mushrooms to perhaps more than twice the original diameter of the bullet.
The purpose of the hollow point is to generate a larger wound channel which serves 2 purposes. First, a larger wound channel creates more "shock" to the animals nervous system ... which debilitates the animal. Second, the larger wound channel creates a larger source of blood loss with minimal chance of clotting to stop blood flow.
If a hollow point should exit the body, they mushroomed bullet actually minimizes the chance of a ricochet, because of a decrease of remaining energy (due to energy transfer) and a less rounded surface that would facilitate deflection of the bullet upon a hard surface.
Source(s):
Master class competitive rifleman with 30+ years experience.
- 4 years ago
Look at the word shock in speech marks and amount of full stops used after 'nervous system.' And where the commas are placed.
Here is another quote from old Gorilla!
'A supersonic full metal-jacketed rifle bullet will produce a cylindrical cavity until it begins to tumble due to the velocity loss'
Then I googled it again. I found the same phrase used in How a High Speed Bullet Damages an Organ by Dr Kenneth A, Rahn's Sr own website.
[URL="http://karws.gso.uri.edu/jfk/scientific_topics/wound_ballistics/How_a_high-speed.html"][URL="http://karws.gso.uri.edu/jfk/scientific_topics/wound_ballistics/How_a_high-speed.html"][URL="http://karws.gso.uri.edu/jfk/scientific_topics/wound_ballistics/How_a_high-speed.html"][URL="http://karws.gso.uri.edu/jfk/scientific_topics/wound_ballistics/How_a_high-speed.html"][URL="http://karws.gso.uri.edu/jfk/scientific_topics/wound_ballistics/How_a_high-speed.html"][URL="http://karws.gso.uri.edu/jfk/scientific_topics/wound_ballistics/How_a_high-speed.html"][URL="http://karws.gso.uri.edu/jfk/scientific_topics/wound_ballistics/How_a_high-speed.html"][URL="http://karws.gso.uri.edu/jfk/scientific_topics/wound_ballistics/How_a_high-speed.html"][url]http://karws.gso.uri.edu/jfk/scientific_topics/wound_ballistics/How_a_high-speed.html[/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL]
'A full metal-jacketed rifle bullet will produce a cylindrical cavity until it begins to tumble.'
Again that has to have been copied and pasted.. it has just been given a little poetic licence...lol..
Just to prove that these aren't just a couple of coincidences. Here is more. Old Gorilla explains the fineries of the damage ammunition will cause.
'This pressure may produce injuries to blood vessels, or organs that are a long distance from the path of the slug. Fractures and other nasty medical conditions can occur even without direct contact between the bone and a rifle bullet.'
Here is Dr Rahn's quote..
' This pressure may produce injuries to blood vessels, nerves, or organs that are a considerable distance from the path of the bullet. Fractures can occur even without direct contact between the bone and a rifle bullet.'
Now Gorilla, I was wondering whether to stick this on the Walter Muppet Section?
What's your response? Hee, hee!
Scuffer.
What's the score?
If I'm not mistaken Gorilla you've copied and pasted a lot of your aforementioned reply.
I am not an expert on ammunition so I wanted a more detailed explanation of your reply to mts.
But when I googled it I found that your post is almost exactly the same as from a couple of other websites.
On this section of your above reply you say
'The purpose of the hollow point is to generate a larger wound channel which serves 2 purposes.
First, a larger wound channel creates more "shock" to the unlucky guy`s nervous system ... which debilitates him.
Second, the larger wound channel creates a larger source of blood loss with minimal chance of clotting to stop blood flow.'
this is what I found on Yahoo answers.com. It is exactly the same phrase written by a hunter except that you have changed the animal section to fit for a person. If I'm not much mistaken you've been at it with the old copy and paste!!
How does a JHP (jacketed hollow point) bullet work? - Yahoo! Answers
Best Answer - Chosen by Voters
Bound's hubby here:
A properly constructed hollow point, used on an appropriate target, will not explode or disintigrate. If the hollow point "explodes", you have either used a hollow point designed for thin skinned varmints on a thick skinned target, or you fired the hollow point at a higher velocity than it was designed for.
You have two types of hollow point: a performance hollow point (designed to expand on game) and a ballistic hollow point (designed to form a "perfect" bullet tip to maximize the ballistic co-efficient [accuracy] of the bullet).
In theory, a ballistic hollow point (such as Sierra's Match King match bullet) will not open up (mushroom) when it hits a flesh target ... small hole in ... small hole out.
A performance hollow point (hunting hollow point) actually starts to expand because of a "hydro-static" reaction to the animal's body fluids. As the hollow point engages the body fluids, the hollow point expands/mushrooms to perhaps more than twice the original diameter of the bullet.
The purpose of the hollow point is to generate a larger wound channel which serves 2 purposes. First, a larger wound channel creates more "shock" to the animals nervous system ... which debilitates the animal. Second, the larger wound channel creates a larger source of blood loss with minimal chance of clotting to stop blood flow.
If a hollow point should exit the body, they mushroomed bullet actually minimizes the chance of a ricochet, because of a decrease of remaining energy (due to energy transfer) and a less rounded surface that would facilitate deflection of the bullet upon a hard surface.
Source(s):
Master class competitive rifleman with 30+ years experience.
Look at the word shock in speech marks and amount of full stops used after 'nervous system.' And where the commas are placed.
Here is another quote from old Gorilla!
'A supersonic full metal-jacketed rifle bullet will produce a cylindrical cavity until it begins to tumble due to the velocity loss'
Then I googled it again. I found the same phrase used in How a High Speed Bullet Damages an Organ by Dr Kenneth A, Rahn's Sr own website.
[URL="http://karws.gso.uri.edu/jfk/scientific_topics/wound_ballistics/How_a_high-speed.html"][URL="http://karws.gso.uri.edu/jfk/scientific_topics/wound_ballistics/How_a_high-speed.html"][URL="http://karws.gso.uri.edu/jfk/scientific_topics/wound_ballistics/How_a_high-speed.html"][URL="http://karws.gso.uri.edu/jfk/scientific_topics/wound_ballistics/How_a_high-speed.html"][URL="http://karws.gso.uri.edu/jfk/scientific_topics/wound_ballistics/How_a_high-speed.html"][URL="http://karws.gso.uri.edu/jfk/scientific_topics/wound_ballistics/How_a_high-speed.html"][URL="http://karws.gso.uri.edu/jfk/scientific_topics/wound_ballistics/How_a_high-speed.html"][URL="http://karws.gso.uri.edu/jfk/scientific_topics/wound_ballistics/How_a_high-speed.html"][URL="http://karws.gso.uri.edu/jfk/scientific_topics/wound_ballistics/How_a_high-speed.html"][url]http://karws.gso.uri.edu/jfk/scientific_topics/wound_ballistics/How_a_high-speed.html[/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL]
'A full metal-jacketed rifle bullet will produce a cylindrical cavity until it begins to tumble.'
Again that has to have been copied and pasted.. it has just been given a little poetic licence...lol..
Just to prove that these aren't just a couple of coincidences. Here is more. Old Gorilla explains the fineries of the damage ammunition will cause.
'This pressure may produce injuries to blood vessels, or organs that are a long distance from the path of the slug. Fractures and other nasty medical conditions can occur even without direct contact between the bone and a rifle bullet.'
Here is Dr Rahn's quote..
' This pressure may produce injuries to blood vessels, nerves, or organs that are a considerable distance from the path of the bullet. Fractures can occur even without direct contact between the bone and a rifle bullet.'
Now Gorilla, I was wondering whether to stick this on the Walter Muppet Section?
What's your response? Hee, hee!
Scuffer.
Sure no problem...
The purpose of the hollow point is to generate a larger wound channel which serves 2 purposes.
First, a larger wound channel creates more "shock" to the unlucky guy`s nervous system ... which debilitates him.
Second, the larger wound channel creates a larger source of blood loss with minimal chance of clotting to stop blood flow.
Translation:You`re hit in the shoulder by a hollow point and depending on the calibre chances are your arm is gone.
A supersonic full metal-jacketed rifle bullet will produce a cylindrical cavity until it begins to tumble due to the velocity loss.(That`s when the fun starts).But beeing a supersonic slug chances are it will pass trough your body BEFORE having time to loose the speed..leaving a minimal entry wound and a slighty larger exit wound .
We are not talking here about the high-velocity centerfire rifles because if you use a 7.62x51mm M40 like round..Then that`s a different story..
Local pressures on the order of 200 atm or even greater may ocure. This pressure may produce injuries to blood vessels, or organs that are a long distance from the path of the slug. Fractures and other nasty medical conditions can occur even without direct contact between the bone and a rifle bullet.
Having said that (I fried half of my neourons trying to put it in a clear english) i just realized that bullets CAN BE DANGEROUS and i changed my mind.
I rather NOT GETTING SHOT at all
If I'm not mistaken Gorilla you've copied and pasted a lot of your aforementioned reply.
I am not an expert on ammunition so I wanted a more detailed explanation of your reply to mts.
But when I googled it I found that your post is almost exactly the same as from a couple of other websites.
On this section of your above reply you say
'The purpose of the hollow point is to generate a larger wound channel which serves 2 purposes.
First, a larger wound channel creates more "shock" to the unlucky guy`s nervous system ... which debilitates him.
Second, the larger wound channel creates a larger source of blood loss with minimal chance of clotting to stop blood flow.'
this is what I found on Yahoo answers.com. It is exactly the same phrase written by a hunter except that you have changed the animal section to fit for a person. If I'm not much mistaken you've been at it with the old copy and paste!!
How does a JHP (jacketed hollow point) bullet work? - Yahoo! Answers
Best Answer - Chosen by Voters
Bound's hubby here:
A properly constructed hollow point, used on an appropriate target, will not explode or disintigrate. If the hollow point "explodes", you have either used a hollow point designed for thin skinned varmints on a thick skinned target, or you fired the hollow point at a higher velocity than it was designed for.
You have two types of hollow point: a performance hollow point (designed to expand on game) and a ballistic hollow point (designed to form a "perfect" bullet tip to maximize the ballistic co-efficient [accuracy] of the bullet).
In theory, a ballistic hollow point (such as Sierra's Match King match bullet) will not open up (mushroom) when it hits a flesh target ... small hole in ... small hole out.
A performance hollow point (hunting hollow point) actually starts to expand because of a "hydro-static" reaction to the animal's body fluids. As the hollow point engages the body fluids, the hollow point expands/mushrooms to perhaps more than twice the original diameter of the bullet.
The purpose of the hollow point is to generate a larger wound channel which serves 2 purposes. First, a larger wound channel creates more "shock" to the animals nervous system ... which debilitates the animal. Second, the larger wound channel creates a larger source of blood loss with minimal chance of clotting to stop blood flow.
If a hollow point should exit the body, they mushroomed bullet actually minimizes the chance of a ricochet, because of a decrease of remaining energy (due to energy transfer) and a less rounded surface that would facilitate deflection of the bullet upon a hard surface.
Source(s):
Master class competitive rifleman with 30+ years experience.
- 4 years ago
Look at the word shock in speech marks and amount of full stops used after 'nervous system.' And where the commas are placed.
Here is another quote from old Gorilla!
'A supersonic full metal-jacketed rifle bullet will produce a cylindrical cavity until it begins to tumble due to the velocity loss'
Then I googled it again. I found the same phrase used in How a High Speed Bullet Damages an Organ by Dr Kenneth A, Rahn's Sr own website.
[URL="http://karws.gso.uri.edu/jfk/scientific_topics/wound_ballistics/How_a_high-speed.html"][URL="http://karws.gso.uri.edu/jfk/scientific_topics/wound_ballistics/How_a_high-speed.html"][URL="http://karws.gso.uri.edu/jfk/scientific_topics/wound_ballistics/How_a_high-speed.html"][URL="http://karws.gso.uri.edu/jfk/scientific_topics/wound_ballistics/How_a_high-speed.html"][URL="http://karws.gso.uri.edu/jfk/scientific_topics/wound_ballistics/How_a_high-speed.html"][URL="http://karws.gso.uri.edu/jfk/scientific_topics/wound_ballistics/How_a_high-speed.html"][URL="http://karws.gso.uri.edu/jfk/scientific_topics/wound_ballistics/How_a_high-speed.html"][URL="http://karws.gso.uri.edu/jfk/scientific_topics/wound_ballistics/How_a_high-speed.html"][URL="http://karws.gso.uri.edu/jfk/scientific_topics/wound_ballistics/How_a_high-speed.html"][url]http://karws.gso.uri.edu/jfk/scientific_topics/wound_ballistics/How_a_high-speed.html[/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL]
'A full metal-jacketed rifle bullet will produce a cylindrical cavity until it begins to tumble.'
Again that has to have been copied and pasted.. it has just been given a little poetic licence...lol..
Just to prove that these aren't just a couple of coincidences. Here is more. Old Gorilla explains the fineries of the damage ammunition will cause.
'This pressure may produce injuries to blood vessels, or organs that are a long distance from the path of the slug. Fractures and other nasty medical conditions can occur even without direct contact between the bone and a rifle bullet.'
Here is Dr Rahn's quote..
' This pressure may produce injuries to blood vessels, nerves, or organs that are a considerable distance from the path of the bullet. Fractures can occur even without direct contact between the bone and a rifle bullet.'
Now Gorilla, I was wondering whether to stick this on the Walter Muppet Section?
What's your response? Hee, hee!
Scuffer.
Daz, yes you pretty much right for where I was.
In the service I worked; the NSW Police, we had one range practice/requal annually. The shoot consisted of a coaching phase prior to the assessed shoot. It was a standard practice; weapon handling; shooting from the holster and the ready position; shooting from the kneeling and standing position, timed and deliberate sequels; shooting at ranges from 3 meters to 15; firing up to 105 rounds in total. We usually did 3 details a day with 10 firers.
I was a range master and really used to cringe at the level weapon handling and shooting form the non tactical police. The SPG/SPSU people would shoot most weeks, but had the use of an indoor range at their place of work.
The other Australian services and countries in Asia I visited where similar; but some had two shoots a year. I think a number of factors including logistics and costs where the obstacles where I worked; the service had close to 13,000 officers spread over a large state.
The frustrating thing was that every time there was a serious incident; usually and unfortunately a police death and a certain amount of error was contributed on the officers actions. The service would address the equipment needs to make things more “fail safe†and often not address the root cause; the training or more the minimal amount of training time provided. You can only impart so much knowledge in an hour session on a person once a year.
To highlight this sistuation; A major contributing factor that resulted in the transition from .38 S&W revolvers to the .40 S&W Glock was a double police shooting in the early 90’s where it is believed one of the officers dumped live rounds out of his revolver and attempted to reload with out firing a shot before being shot dead himself by the offender. So the Glock was deemed in this scenario to be more fail safe compared to the revolver.………Training, or lack there of, on the other hand was not really considered as a contributing factor.
All police in Australia carry firearms every day whilst on duty. I think this has lead to complacency in too many individuals. Frequent and realistic training and conditioning goes along way to eliminating that.
When I worked on road I always practiced and implimented best officer survival techniques. I always wore a vest, carried a 26 inch batton when out of the vehilce, carried a portable radio, had leather gloves with Kevlar lining; carried 45 rounds of .40 SW ammo in 3 magazines; and maitained a high level of fintness. I was cosidered a nut by some, but ignorance is bliss I say.
We have gone of track here. But this has been a good thread and thought provoking.
It’s a shame the police services don’t promote an exchange program like Longlook. But the I guess you did send us Peter Ryan :-I
Oh dear oh dear eh?
Probably not a good idea to try to bluff police officers, i'm sure they do some investigative training at some stage and with the great god Google at your fingertips........enough said.
Now i,m off to have a look for this walter muppet section
Regards
Daz
Probably not a good idea to try to bluff police officers, i'm sure they do some investigative training at some stage and with the great god Google at your fingertips........enough said.
Now i,m off to have a look for this walter muppet section
Regards
Daz
Gorillanobaka1977
Longterm Registered User
If I'm not mistaken Gorilla you've copied and pasted a lot of your aforementioned reply.
I am not an expert on ammunition so I wanted a more detailed explanation of your reply to mts.
But when I googled it I found that your post is almost exactly the same as from a couple of other websites.
On this section of your above reply you say
'The purpose of the hollow point is to generate a larger wound channel which serves 2 purposes.
First, a larger wound channel creates more "shock" to the unlucky guy`s nervous system ... which debilitates him.
Second, the larger wound channel creates a larger source of blood loss with minimal chance of clotting to stop blood flow.'
this is what I found on Yahoo answers.com. It is exactly the same phrase written by a hunter except that you have changed the animal section to fit for a person. If I'm not much mistaken you've been at it with the old copy and paste!!
How does a JHP (jacketed hollow point) bullet work? - Yahoo! Answers
Best Answer - Chosen by Voters
Bound's hubby here:
A properly constructed hollow point, used on an appropriate target, will not explode or disintigrate. If the hollow point "explodes", you have either used a hollow point designed for thin skinned varmints on a thick skinned target, or you fired the hollow point at a higher velocity than it was designed for.
You have two types of hollow point: a performance hollow point (designed to expand on game) and a ballistic hollow point (designed to form a "perfect" bullet tip to maximize the ballistic co-efficient [accuracy] of the bullet).
In theory, a ballistic hollow point (such as Sierra's Match King match bullet) will not open up (mushroom) when it hits a flesh target ... small hole in ... small hole out.
A performance hollow point (hunting hollow point) actually starts to expand because of a "hydro-static" reaction to the animal's body fluids. As the hollow point engages the body fluids, the hollow point expands/mushrooms to perhaps more than twice the original diameter of the bullet.
The purpose of the hollow point is to generate a larger wound channel which serves 2 purposes. First, a larger wound channel creates more "shock" to the animals nervous system ... which debilitates the animal. Second, the larger wound channel creates a larger source of blood loss with minimal chance of clotting to stop blood flow.
If a hollow point should exit the body, they mushroomed bullet actually minimizes the chance of a ricochet, because of a decrease of remaining energy (due to energy transfer) and a less rounded surface that would facilitate deflection of the bullet upon a hard surface.
Source(s):
Master class competitive rifleman with 30+ years experience.
100% 3 Votes
- 4 years ago
Look at the word shock in speech marks and amount of full stops used after 'nervous system.' And where the commas are placed.
Here is another quote from old Gorilla!
'A supersonic full metal-jacketed rifle bullet will produce a cylindrical cavity until it begins to tumble due to the velocity loss'
Then I googled it again. I found the same phrase used in How a High Speed Bullet Damages an Organ by Dr Kenneth A, Rahn's Sr own website.
http://karws.gso.uri.edu/jfk/scientific_topics/wound_ballistics/How_a_high-speed.html
'A full metal-jacketed rifle bullet will produce a cylindrical cavity until it begins to tumble.'
Again that has to have been copied and pasted.. it has just been given a little poetic licence...lol..
Just to prove that these aren't just a couple of coincidences. Here is more. Old Gorilla explains the fineries of the damage ammunition will cause.
'This pressure may produce injuries to blood vessels, or organs that are a long distance from the path of the slug. Fractures and other nasty medical conditions can occur even without direct contact between the bone and a rifle bullet.'
Here is Dr Rahn's quote..
' This pressure may produce injuries to blood vessels, nerves, or organs that are a considerable distance from the path of the bullet. Fractures can occur even without direct contact between the bone and a rifle bullet.'
Now Gorilla, I was wondering whether to stick this on the Walter Muppet Section?
What's your response? Hee, hee!
Scuffer.
You can stick it where ever you feel like buddy..
Paste and copy and adaptations or whatever you wanna call it sometimes are necessary when someone wants to express himself using technical terms in a foreign language...
Knowing the staff in your own language is one thing...To write it in a coherent form is an other thing and as you are aware this seems to be quite tricky even if you are a native..If we add in technical terms and stuff you`ve lost most of the guys..(We are still talking about our own native language here...)
Now just for fun pick up a language and try to express yourself with the level of proficiency required when we are talking about guns ballistics and stuff and you will understend where i am coming from...
I mean come on...Do you really think that this high level English is taught in the Romanian army`s foreign language courses??
If you really did ..
Last edited:
The predictable reply.
Gorillanobaka,
On this particular forum you will have to get up a little earlier in the morning to put one over on this particular section of people. You are dealing with trained investigators.
If you think that response is likely to be believed by people who deal with liars for a living then you are clearly more misinformed that you appear.
You haven't just took the type of language to explain your point. You have completely stolen the work and then slightly doctored it to fit into your own context.
Adding 'technical terms and stuff' won't lose most guys on this particular forum. As you can see from the highly detailed thread. The people on this forum are highly qualified and quite frankly don't need an internet warrior who copies and pastes other persons work, and then continues to try and blag his way out of it.
But Gorilla, I don't expect you to admit it. Your not the type. The question that people will always have with reading your posts in the future will be...Is this really Gorilla speaking or someone else. Hee, hee!
Scuffer.
You can stick it where ever you feel like buddy..
Paste and copy and adaptations or whatever you wanna call it sometimes are necessary when someone wants to express himself using technical terms in a foreign language...
Knowing the staff in your own language is one thing...To write it in a coherent form is an other thing and as you are aware this seems to be quite tricky even if you are a native..If we add in technical terms and stuff you`ve lost most of the guys..(We are still talking about our own native language here...)
Now just for fun pick up a language and try to express yourself with the level of proficiency required when we are talking about guns ballistics and stuff and you will understend where i am coming from...
I mean come on...Do you really think that this high level English is taught in the Romanian army`s foreign language courses??
If you really did ..
Gorillanobaka,
On this particular forum you will have to get up a little earlier in the morning to put one over on this particular section of people. You are dealing with trained investigators.
If you think that response is likely to be believed by people who deal with liars for a living then you are clearly more misinformed that you appear.
You haven't just took the type of language to explain your point. You have completely stolen the work and then slightly doctored it to fit into your own context.
Adding 'technical terms and stuff' won't lose most guys on this particular forum. As you can see from the highly detailed thread. The people on this forum are highly qualified and quite frankly don't need an internet warrior who copies and pastes other persons work, and then continues to try and blag his way out of it.
But Gorilla, I don't expect you to admit it. Your not the type. The question that people will always have with reading your posts in the future will be...Is this really Gorilla speaking or someone else. Hee, hee!
Scuffer.
DaveThorne
Full Registered User
Hello again Guys,
Lots of interesting stuff here. I notice lots of input dealing with rifle and hunting ammo, neither of which I feel are overly pertinent to this forum but the principles are overarching so I suppose we'll run with it.
One strand I picked up on was that of the Glaser Safety Slug. (A thin copper jacket filled with number 12 bird shot which was highly frangible and produced very rapid energy dump into the target. Originally designed to be fired safely in aircraft) The problem that was identified with this ammo was the lack of initial penetration, say through a leather jacket or thick winter coat. The solution to this was the Core Shot round which had the front half of a standard hollow point (holding the projectile together for the initial punch) and the back half of a Glaser (giving very rapid energy dump after the initial penetration). I used to reload (pre Hungerford) and although Core Shot were very good they were hand made and therefore very expensive.
I don't know if Core Shot projectiles are still on the market.
Stay Safe
Dave T
Lots of interesting stuff here. I notice lots of input dealing with rifle and hunting ammo, neither of which I feel are overly pertinent to this forum but the principles are overarching so I suppose we'll run with it.
One strand I picked up on was that of the Glaser Safety Slug. (A thin copper jacket filled with number 12 bird shot which was highly frangible and produced very rapid energy dump into the target. Originally designed to be fired safely in aircraft) The problem that was identified with this ammo was the lack of initial penetration, say through a leather jacket or thick winter coat. The solution to this was the Core Shot round which had the front half of a standard hollow point (holding the projectile together for the initial punch) and the back half of a Glaser (giving very rapid energy dump after the initial penetration). I used to reload (pre Hungerford) and although Core Shot were very good they were hand made and therefore very expensive.
I don't know if Core Shot projectiles are still on the market.
Stay Safe
Dave T
Frangible ammunition is not a good choice for self defense as it lacks penetration even if no clothes are in the way. It doesn't matter if it imparts all of its energy into the target, if that energy is expended damaging surface tissues.
"Energy dump" can be a bit misleading. What is better: a .22 that expends all its energy in the target, or a .357 that blows right through (given identical placement)?
"Energy dump" can be a bit misleading. What is better: a .22 that expends all its energy in the target, or a .357 that blows right through (given identical placement)?
Gorillanobaka1977
Longterm Registered User
Would you get off your high horse and listen to me?
First of all i have never claimed to be the high priest of the ammo and ballistics as you can see from my earlier post...
http://www.closeprotectionworld.co....point-vs-hollow-point-bullets.html#post100201[url]http://www.closeprotectionworld.co.uk/police-armed-response-forum/13841-round-point-vs-hollow-point-bullets.html#post100201[/URL]
My post has been made as an addition to the original one below..
It was intended to explain why the hollow points gives me the creeps right..?
http://www.closeprotectionworld.co....-point-vs-hollow-point-bullets.html#post99908[url]http://www.closeprotectionworld.co.uk/police-armed-response-forum/13841-round-point-vs-hollow-point-bullets.html#post99908[/URL]
You can actually see mts asking me to elaborate....
http://www.closeprotectionworld.co....-point-vs-hollow-point-bullets.html#post99935[url]http://www.closeprotectionworld.co.uk/police-armed-response-forum/13841-round-point-vs-hollow-point-bullets.html#post99935[/URL]
And here i am trying to explain why would i actually prefer being hit by a supersonic bullet instead of a hollow-point one..
http://www.closeprotectionworld.co....point-vs-hollow-point-bullets.html#post100130[url]http://www.closeprotectionworld.co.uk/police-armed-response-forum/13841-round-point-vs-hollow-point-bullets.html#post100130[/URL]
Again here is mts explaining to me more things and stuff and here is me admitting once again that i am not some kind of expert or trying to bluff my way trough as someone might want to make it look like ..All right??
http://www.closeprotectionworld.co....point-vs-hollow-point-bullets.html#post100201[url]http://www.closeprotectionworld.co.uk/police-armed-response-forum/13841-round-point-vs-hollow-point-bullets.html#post100201[/URL]
Now... Am i missing something here...?? Are we back in the UNI and writing essays for masters or PHD or something ?? Are we talking about plagiarism here..??
You are accusing me of having completely stolen someone`s work and then slightly doctored it to fit into my own context.(I think by "my own context" you mean the explanation as why i would rather be shot by a supersonic bullet instead of a hollow point one ...Right??)
First of all i have never claimed to be an expert on the subject....I also never intended to write a book as some of the experts in here...
[url]http://www.closeprotectionworld.co.uk/close-protection-forum/28277-importance-balancing-threat-mitigation.html#post157109[/URL]
Lemme point to you once again that the explanation includes highly technical terms that are specific to ballistics /army and medical world so to speak..
Again..knowing what you want to say in your own language is one thing...translating the stuff in a foreign language is a different animal especially when we are dealing with specific technical terms and stuff..these technical terms can not be replaced by synonyms or made up words at least if you intend to make your explanation clear...
So once again what you can see there is not a stupid essay for masters or something , is just an explanation on why i would rather prefer to be hit by that bullet..
Those threads contained the technical terms of the explanation i was looking for in a plain clear English ..and that was why i picked them up...Once again..
Paste and copy and adaptations or whatever you wanna call it sometimes are necessary when someone wants to express himself using technical terms in a foreign language...You will realize that next time when you will actually try to translate something from one language to an other Mr Plagiarism Checker..So your accusation or whatever it is does not make any sense at all...All right?
Have a nice day...
Or something...