Shooting ranges in Israel

I did a beginners course with a UK registered company that flys you out to train in Israel (ukfirearmstraining.co.uk). I found the course great and the fact the company is UK based it put my mind at ease as they have to abide by British Trading Standards etc.
I had very little experience before doing the course and had a great time. The Krav Maga sessions knocked the cr*p out of me but I guess I was not as fit as I thought I was.
Money wise it cost me £1550 all inclusive + flight for a week in Israel with two days free to travel.
 
I did a beginners course with a UK registered company that flys you out to train in Israel (ukfirearmstraining.co.uk). I found the course great and the fact the company is UK based it put my mind at ease as they have to abide by British Trading Standards etc.
I had very little experience before doing the course and had a great time. The Krav Maga sessions knocked the cr*p out of me but I guess I was not as fit as I thought I was.
Money wise it cost me £1550 all inclusive + flight for a week in Israel with two days free to travel.

That's a really good package; who conducted the Israel training (what Israeli company)?

m
 
Blackhawlk,

Agreed. To me it is not as effective as the methods I have always used. However, what you must understand is that if an individual is trained constantly in a certain discipline and it is drilled in over a period of time then that drill will become instinctive.

The best example of this is the state of the weapons when drawing. It is in condition 2 - rounds in the magazine, no round in the chamber. Operationally, I am condition one - cocked, round in the chamber, safety catch applied. When I draw it becomes instinctive to flick the safety off as I draw. However, with many in the middle east and eastern bloc countries they cock the weapon on the draw.

Whatever works for you.

Naturally, if you are taught one method then that will naturally become the best method to use.

That said, hanging out of vehicles shooting is bollocks :)


Rich H

Spot on Rich

The empty chamber carry is simply a safety method when deploying firearms to many people in a civilian environment. Certain CPO, military and police units carry with a chambered round. Everyone carries chambered when/where necessary.

The chambered round or not is simply a safety enhancement and as you know a small part of the overall shooting technique.

m
 
Thank you very much M,

I emailed a few companies over there, ask the same question's and had no reply back, but had a read receipt on my email.
I would say that the shooting stance is used allot over there, also I would say that it may work well for them, but saying it is a Solid stance, for people knocking into you, I do not accept.

What is the stance for nearly every martial art in the world, Boxing, Karate, Judo, Kung fu, Taekwondo, and all the rest, similar to the weaver, as it is the most stable of all stances, take that from someone who has done four martial art's for 19 years.
If you look at the Isosceles, whether you lean into it or not, both feet are shoulder width apart, but that is not the stability, as you only have a size 9 or max 12 shoe, in contact with the floor, you can not lean to far into it or you'll end up on your face, so no stability. In the weaver, you have, one metre, or less apart and leaning forward, depending on what weapon you are shooting, but you have your rear leg to push against, just like a Boxer or martial artist.

...

And most martial artists have never been in a real fight. Train in and learn in whatever you want mate, i don't need to convince you as you already have your mind made up.

Good luck with whatever you choose.

m
 
M,
you sound like you are experienced in the security industry and know what you are talking about, also you think I have made my mind up already, but if you read my first post again, you will see I was asking for my questions to be answered and to date, Cash, is the only one who has come back with the Isosceles stance.

If you know the answer's to the questions, then please feel free to answer all of them, as I can not get any feed back from the companies I have emailed and asked, before spending my money, to travel to Israel, which now I am not.

I did not start this post to upset, or disrespect anyone, I know some things work for some people and not for others and there has been some good feed back on how people carry their weapon, condition 1, or 2, but this does not answer my questions.

You say that most martial arts have never been in a real fight and I agree, but they are only a system of movements for training and will never work in a real fight, this is what I am saying about some of the Israeli tactics.

Look, I have for many years taught a very nasty street fighting martial art and I agree with you that most martial arts do not not work in the real world, street fights, bar brawls, muggings, car jacking.

People need to learn what realy works, be it in weapons and tactics, street fighting, or driving, it may not look flash, but a jab in the throat, or an eye gouge with car key's, will drop an attacker quicker, rather than a cool looking Bruce lee, Jackie Chan flying through the air kick, or a nice round house or axe, Taekwondo kick, looks good, but try that in leather soled shoes on a wet street walking home with your misses, or in a small gents toilet, pissing in the urinal.

Why I do not agree with some tactics? whether weapons or martial arts, we have all gone made about what looks good, bum's on seats, course numbers, and ok, business wise that is good, but these people are giving these students a false sense of security, who will think they will be able, or worse still, try these tactics in a real situation and end up dead of badly injured.

What pray tell, qualifies you in your opinion? I'm always open to lean more, but please tell us about yourself.

M


I have a very bad habit, have had for many years, (I just love fighting), I will do what ever I can to get the rush of adrenalin.
Over the years I have bare knuckle fought, fought in no rules martial art tournaments in europe, I stick fight regular and there are few weekends I do not fight in bars and clubs, call me a thug, I dont mind.

I have written for combat magazines, I teach both here and abroad, so over the years, I know exactly what works and what doesn't, what drops people and what doesn't, all this first hand close quarter experience is pass on to my students, with great results.

Look at most of the self defence, martial arts, Krav Maga, knife disarms, same thing, they are giving students a false sense of security and confidence that they can realy disarm that attacker with a knife, again, take if from someone who instructs knife and stick fighting, has been stabbed and slashed nine times and say's you will 95% of the time, not disarm someone with a blade, be it, lock knife, kitchen knife, combat knife, or stanley blade.

I teach my Knife fighting course's using a 7.500 volt tazer knife, to bring the adrenalin rushing realism, I do not teach in any dojo, I run courses in working men's clubs, bars, garages, all the shitty low light condition places you get and let me tell you, peoples reaction is very different, when I change from the rubber knife, to the tazer knife, makes it more realistic, they will do anything not to get touched by it, as you would do in the street, club, or bar.

People with blades, do not stab in a over stretched thrusting movement, as you will see in these disarm lessons, you will very rarely see the knife and in some cases feel it, but as it is a touch weapon, so you will bleed where ever it touches.

My experience is not with weapons and tactics, that is why I have asked for help on re-educating me on the tactics I have pointed out, I like to know why people do what they do and for what reason, or are we just seeing something that sells courses.
 
".....I have a very bad habit, have had for many years, (I just love fighting), I will do what ever I can to get the rush of adrenalin......"

I have to say that, that comment alone marks you out as someone I would be extremely hesitant in working with. Granted you say that you are not a thug and that you do not fight in bars and such, but adrenaline junkies in this line of work are a bit of a pain for the rest of the CP team. Give me "Mr Calm" any day over "Mr I'm hard and need a rush" CPO.

And you can be trained to the highest level in any martial art, reality based system or your very nasty street fighting martial art, but that is just one TINY aspect of the work involved.

As mts has pointed out, there are some training providers out there that are utter crap regardless of what country they're in. But Israel is a fantastic place to visit whether for training or holiday.

Heno
 
Hello Gentlemen,

I am a first time user and I am looking for some guidance and advice.
I am new to the security industry, have just done an SIA course and I am looking to do some firearms training to get more experience.
I have many ex military friends, two of whom are ex SF, so I get some very good advice when I ask any question.
I have been looking to do a israeli course of some type, as there are many people who think very highly of their training, but many of my army friends say other wise.
They say that the Israelis are not as good as they used to be, some of the tactics they teach are beyond shocking and totally unrealistic.
This has made me look on the internet and you tube, to see what they mine, so I can make up my own mind, but I do not know much at what I am looking at.
I looked on you tube, at Max security close protection training, which I watched a few time over, then showed it to my friends, who had many things to say about it.
My questions please gents, I need help on.

Point 1. Why do the Israelis shoot pistols like they are riding horses. On you tube, it show's one on the range shooting an AK I think, but he is standing like a boxer, he then moves into the horse riding position, after drawing his pistol. My friends say that he should have just draw his pistol without moving, as it is qiucker, a more stable fire base, also you are a smaller target side on,

Point 2. In the driving scene they seem to get ambushed, the BG in the front car, sort of jumps over to the backseat, then comes back and starts shooting out of an open window, before the car drives off. My friends say that the driver should have gone straight into his Anti-ambush driving, with the BG, laying on top of the VIP. The window would not be down, unless shot out , also the security car would not have stopped and the team get out. Said it could have been a come on.( Is this right.)

Point 3. Another you tube clip from Bodyguard training Israel, show them hanging out of the window's shooting, driving very slow, it all looks very micky mouse to me.
My friends say, they do not know how they can get into that situation. This is what they say,

Scene. the vehicle is driving alone the road, as a fully trained BG driver, you should be alert enough to see a suspect man standing on the corner with an AK 47, so you just turn off, U turn, J turn or fast reverse.
No, they notice the threat, undo their seat belts, draw their weapons, wide the window down and climb out and sit on the window, while holding the small handle inside of the roof, which is only held on with two small self tapping screws and proberbly wouldn't hold a 15 stone man hagging out of the window.
In the mean time, the well trained BG driver, does not go into his anti-ambush driving, he just keeps the car dead steady, so his mates do not fall out on their heads, all while driving at around 10mph.

Piont 4. Why do they jump out of a moving car, or run along side it, then jump in, as if they were with the president of the United States. My friends say, that they would be laughed off any job, or sacked, for embarrassing the principle. (Is this right.)

There was much more, but I do not want to bore everyone on my first post, but I want some sound advice, before spending my hard earned money.

Thanks for any help.
Thought i would enter the debate.
1, your friends are correct imo he should not have changed his stance. Just ditch the primary and draw secondary. I was taught the combat weaver stance for pistol shooting and thats what i still do, this stance is most like the stance you describe. The isosceles was taught after i left but is now taught by my current employers. I am led to believe that their were a number of reasons for this, more pointability at the target and allowing your body armour to be more effective in that it is pointed toward the threat. The CW stance although making you a smaller target allows more opportunity for rounds to enter the armpit shoulder area which is generally less well protected. I am sure persons on here will give pros and cons re the two different shooting styles.
2, Your friend is correct the team should have carriedout their drills as per training. I was taught that the BG gives body cover to the Principle and PES vehicle would carryout one of many SOP,s depending on where the contact point is or are. PES as per my training would not have stopped unless the front car was immobilised/stopped.
3, I again was taught to engage targets through the windows of the vehicle. The "Scene" you describe sounds like a demo for Video footage to show the proficiency of the CPO,s. In this case it seems to have done the opposite. Driving slowly on a range isnt unusual, i dont know about everyone elses experiences but most injurys happen in training. Several have happened in NI during vehicle drills and some have had very serious consequences. Our boss had real problems slowing us down.
4, Running alongside vehicles seem pointless to me and i am glad i have never been asked to do it.
These are purely my opinions and from training which took place in 91. Tactics and opinions will surely have changed since i was taught/working especially since Iraq and Afghanistan. One piece of advice though mate, CPO,s are to minimise risk and keep your principle put of harm not to get into a fight. If you tell people about your "eagerness" to fight they wont be inclined to work with you. CP work is generally quite boring, its the training that is the most interesting.
Cheers
M
 
Mali,
thanks for the feed back, good points, good to hear my friends are right with the same advise, I am happy that I changed my mind on the training.

Heno,
thanks for your feed back, never did slate Israel as a country, never would, no more than any other, I am sure it is very nice, but like I said, I do not mean to disrespect or insult anyone here.
I under stand your feelings of CP officers working with people like me, yes, I am a adrenalin junkie, just like Base jumpers, free fallers, etc, I specialise in what I do and teach, never said I was hard, this is where people like your self get silly and have to have a dig, I know what I can do and I am very comfortable with it, just feels right to me.
God forbid any close protection company who hire any ex army or navy boxers, adrenalin junkie to operate in Iraq or Afghanistan, they just might take on the whole country.
 
Mali,
thanks for the feed back, good points, good to hear my friends are right with the same advise, I am happy that I changed my mind on the training.

Heno,
thanks for your feed back, never did slate Israel as a country, never would, no more than any other, I am sure it is very nice, but like I said, I do not mean to disrespect or insult anyone here.
I under stand your feelings of CP officers working with people like me, yes, I am a adrenalin junkie, just like Base jumpers, free fallers, etc, I specialise in what I do and teach, never said I was hard, this is where people like your self get silly and have to have a dig, I know what I can do and I am very comfortable with it, just feels right to me.
God forbid any close protection company who hire any ex army or navy boxers, adrenalin junkie to operate in Iraq or Afghanistan, they just might take on the whole country.

Ok, "...people like yourself get silly and have to have a dig"

People like me? You know nothing about me.

It wasn't a dig, I was pointing out that those that "love a fight" are generally, in my experience nothing more than a burden on a team and never last long.

Your post did come across as a bit, "I'm hard me" and bully for you if you are.

Nothing wrong with adrenaline, the way that one goes about getting the fix is what matters.

The fact that you have few weekends that you don't fight in pubs and clubs shows an alarming lack of maturity and respect to others in the security profession namely DS. That's the kind of behaviour seen every weekend by drunken teenagers. Again, not the kind of professional attitude that the industry needs or wants.

Heno
 
What pray tell, qualifies you in your opinion? I'm always open to lean more, but please tell us about yourself.

M

Sorry for the late reply, err well to answer your question my training and my un-willingness to take things at face value. Get as much information and training and try things for yourself, do it again and again and again until you are sick to death of it! You must be bored and even see it in your damn sleep. J It has to become second nature. And yes the act of hanging out of the window during an ambush.... well it belongs in Hollywood as far as I’m concerned. If someone would like to correct me on that please tell me its purpose. J Most ambushes are over in seconds, if your vehicle is not disabled then you would probably just carry on through. To think you would have time to un-belt yourself (another controversial subject, for some other time) draw your pistol or bring your weapon to bear and actually know where the rounds are coming from??? Then hang out of a moving vehicle and return fire, oh and then stay in the vehicle while the driver goes into emergency drills. Funny stuff! Reality will soon get those ideas out of people’s heads, either that or their team members will. One way or another! Lol
To respond to the comment about them doing it everyday in Israel.... well at the top gov leval no protection detail would ever dream of pulling that crap off not that it in my oppinion it could even be done, and no i have never done it because if some one told me to do that i would have something to say about it. No matter what country we are talking about these people are or want to be professional.
Anyway, B/H keep a rein on those fist because no Boss wants to be embarrassed by their CPO and you still need to abide by the Laws of whatever country you are in. Thats if you value your Liberty! Try to turn your training drive and discipline to this new field.
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Said before, I do not want to insult or disrespect anyone,
but at what part in my post's do I come across as a drunken immature teenager, disrespecting DS.
I am T total, I've never smoked, not going to get into how much I train, never worked on the doors and never will, so tell me why people like you, see people like me as a threat, because my passion, work and instructing, is all based around fighting and martial arts and courses.

I said on my first post, that I was new to the protection game, not long finished the SIA course, which I must say was the biggest waste of money, because again, in my opinion, it does not prepare anyone to be a close protection officer after 15 or 18 days and never, under any circumstance's be able to operate in a high risk environment.
NEVER SEEM A PLUMBER TRAINED IN 15 DAY'S.


"Quote"
Maybe before you say what works and what doesn't, you can get yourself some experience and then make a qualified assessment?

What do you think I was trying for, I said in my post that I wanted to get more experience in this field, because thats how the SIA course has left me feeling, so I started doing my research on courses abroad.
When I look at courses, I look for most realistic to me, I look at the worst thing that can happen in a situation, WHAT IF, what is the worst thing I can do to them to get me out of the situation and what is the worst thing that can happen to me, to stop me getting out of that situation, What's the old saying, train how you fight, or train hard, fight easy, military saying I know, but never a true word.

I started looking at the Israeli courses and at one point had my mind made up, must have been the Krav Maga bit, love a challenge, but when I studied the video's, some things looked mickey mouse and very unrealistic, asking my self, "How and where the hell does that tactic come from and what is the reson", so I posted, NEED HELP, PLEASE ANSWER QUESTIONS, BEFORE SPENDING MONEY.

"Quote"
those that "love a fight" are generally, in my experience nothing more than a burden on a team and never last long.

Bad experience on a team had we, must have been sat on your arse by someone who was a bit punchy,makes some people a bit bitter.

Most of the problem's I get into, is because of who I am and the name I have on the fighting circuit, most are not my doing in starting, but many bad feeling from past fights, mainly in the ring, or in stick fighting, but bad loser's in any case, so I am not gobbing off, "I'm a hard nut", there's always a better man around the corner.

I think this is all dragging on a bit and has got out of hand, all from asking a few questions about tactics, some realy good feed back, some thinking their better and asking about your past, WHY, to gauge what back ground your from and how much experience you have, then all you get is, WHO ARE YOU TO SAY, AND GO AND GET SOME EXPERIENCE, all from trying to to ask advise from those in the know.

Look lad's, I apologise if I have offended anyone, if so, not intended, I do respect your feed back and obviously your professionalism in this industry.

Gentlemen, I would love to say who I was, and offer a FREE weekend on my next course, we may be able to show each other a few new things, but sadly I cannot, but many of you will know me up the North.

Thanks again for all your feed back.
 
BH, I think you are getting the wrong end of the stick. No one is saying you cant enjoy a bit of a physical challenge just do it legally. To do otherwise means you get a criminal record/lose your SIA cert and cant practice cp,ds or security. You were very open stating quite clearly that you love a fight and have one most weekends. That very statement would ban you from most decent companys, its not the rep they want. Also bear in mind that the people who are answering you are employed in the profession you wish to join, someone on here will know you and then your probably going to find it difficult to get employment.
 
Please can someone post the links to hanging out windows and links to running alongside.

I'll then be happy to provide my opinion.

BH, just like everywhere, there are indeed Mickey Mouse providers in Israel hence i would like to see the vids before analyzing the exact techniques.

One of the most important skills/qualities in a professional CPO is a cool head; with all your fighting, do you have a cool head or a short fuse? You don't need to answer me or here, but ask yourself that. Fighting is very important for a CPO BUT is one of the last options and the chances you will get in a fist fight on a daily basis are low.

Thanks
 
"...... at what part in my post's do I come across as a drunken immature teenager, disrespecting DS..."

It was the bit about loving a fight and fighting most weekends in pubs and clubs and doing anything for the adrenaline rush. Pubs and clubs have DS, you're fighting in their workplace. A lack of respect there I'd say.

Exactly the kind of attitude displayed every weekend the length and breadth of the country by drunken teenagers and those that really should have more sense.

The fact that you now say that you are T total and it is others that are starting trouble with you because of who you are shows you may need to work on your "avoidance" skills a bit more. You're putting yourself in those situations.

Yes I have been put on my arse, did it make me bitter? Not in the least. These things happen and I don't dwell on them, instead I learn from them.

No, I wouldn't see someone like you as a threat, I would see you as a hinderance, someone else to look after as well as my Principal. A cool head is a must.

I'd would be asking myself would you be as keen to get into scrap if it was a gunfight as you seem to be when it's fisticuffs? I'm not saying you would be, but that's what I'd be thinking.

But back to Israel, as has been said there are crap providers in every country, hanging from car windows is beyond me and running beside the car just gets you tired and sweaty. Have you tried calling the training providers rather than emailing them?

Heno
 
YouTube - Bodyguard Training in Israel[/URL]

Hanging out of window clip.
Why do they run up to the threat from the car, then run back.

YouTube - Guardaespalas - Formación Avanzada de Seguridad IsraelÃ*[/URL]

More hanging out of the window and what is diving on the floor in front of the car all about.
Spanish company, but Isaeli tactics.

YouTube - Formación de escoltas[/URL]

Another Spanish company, Israeli tactics, nice to see the escort vehicle, leaving before the VIP vehicle.

Sorry lads, is there something that I am not seeing, maybe this industry is not for me in the end.
 
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Thanks for posting the vids. The two top video's are from the Israel Security Academy. The owner is a member here and has posted in this thread. He would be the best to answer questions on tactics from his course.

m
 
BH, vids were good watching. Obviously completely different tactics to what i have been taught. The debus drill of jumping out of a moving vehicle looks to me like a perfect opportunity to make a tit of yourself but each to their own. As for most of your other points i am looking forward to a few replies from the owner of the company. One other point comes to mind, if you aint competent enough to carry a modern sidearm in Condition 1 then you aint capable of being a CPO.
 
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