SCT
Security Directors
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-22...n-armed-volunteer-posses-protect-schools.html
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I just read that page and I have to admit I am shocked and frightened. I didn't think Foxes were that aggressive here in the UK.
I'd better get a gun, speaking of which there was also another story on that page about some wanker in North East England making some empty and brainless threat to kill 200 school children, t'uh! Sounds like a tosser, good thing he can't get hold of a gun in the UK. Perhaps he'd have more luck if he moved to the US.
D
Deleted member 33
Guest
SCT
Security Directors
Nearly all the comments are from sanctimonious asswipes, so what are you trying do here prove my point for me?
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D
Deleted member 33
Guest
SCT - I think we all know what your point is
Rich H
Rich H
Strict Gun Laws in Chicago Can’t Stem Fatal Shots
By Monica Davey
CHICAGO — Not a single gun shop can be found in this city because they are outlawed. Handguns were banned in Chicago for decades, too, until 2010, when the United States Supreme Court ruled that was going too far, leading city leaders to settle for restrictions some describe as the closest they could get legally to a ban without a ban. Despite a continuing legal fight, Illinois remains the only state in the nation with no provision to let private citizens carry guns in public.
And yet Chicago, a city with no civilian gun ranges and bans on both assault weapons and high-capacity magazines, finds itself laboring to stem a flood of gun violence that contributed to more than 500 homicides last year and at least 40 killings already in 2013, including a fatal shooting of a 15-year-old girl on Tuesday.
To gun rights advocates, the city provides stark evidence that even some of the toughest restrictions fail to make places safer. “The gun laws in Chicago only restrict the law-abiding citizens and they’ve essentially made the citizens prey,†said Richard A. Pearson, executive director of the Illinois State Rifle Association. To gun control proponents, the struggles here underscore the opposite — a need for strict, uniform national gun laws to eliminate the current patchwork of state and local rules that allow guns to flow into this city from outside.
“Chicago is like a house with two parents that may try to have good rules and do what they can, but it’s like you’ve got this single house sitting on a whole block where there’s anarchy,†said the Rev. Ira J. Acree, one among a group of pastors here who have marched and gathered signatures for an end to so much shooting. “Chicago is an argument for laws that are statewide or, better yet, national.â€
Chicago’s experience reveals the complications inherent in carrying out local gun laws around the nation. Less restrictive laws in neighboring communities and states not only make guns easy to obtain nearby, but layers of differing laws — local and state — make it difficult to police violations. And though many describe the local and state gun laws here as relatively stringent, penalties for violating them — from jail time to fines — have not proven as severe as they are in some other places, reducing the incentive to comply.
Lately, the police say they are discovering far more guns on the streets of Chicago than in the nation’s two more populous cities, Los Angeles and New York. They seized 7,400 guns here in crimes or unpermitted uses last year (compared with 3,285 in New York City), and have confiscated 574 guns just since Jan. 1 — 124 of them last week alone.
More than a quarter of the firearms seized on the streets here by the Chicago Police Department over the past five years were bought just outside city limits in Cook County suburbs, according to an analysis by the University of Chicago Crime Lab. Others came from stores around Illinois and from other states, like Indiana, less than an hour’s drive away. Since 2008, more than 1,300 of the confiscated guns, the analysis showed, were bought from just one store, Chuck’s Gun Shop in Riverdale, Ill., within a few miles of Chicago’s city limits.
Efforts to compare the strictness of gun laws and the level of violence across major American cities are fraught with contradiction and complication, not least because of varying degrees of coordination between local and state laws and differing levels of enforcement. In New York City, where homicides and shootings have decreased, the gun laws are generally seen as at least as strict as Chicago’s, and the state laws in New York and many of its neighboring states are viewed as still tougher than those in and around Illinois. Philadelphia, like cities in many states, is limited in writing gun measures that go beyond those set by Pennsylvania law. Some city officials there have chafed under what they see as relatively lax state controls.
In Chicago, the rules for owning a handgun — rewritten after the outright ban was deemed too restrictive in 2010 — sound arduous. Owners must seek a Chicago firearms permit, which requires firearms training, a background check and a state-mandated firearm owner’s identification card, which requires a different background review for felonies and mental illness. To prevent straw buyers from selling or giving their weapons to people who would not meet the restrictions — girlfriends buying guns for gang members is a common problem, the police here say — the city requires permitted gun owners to report their weapons lost, sold or stolen.
Still, for all the regulations, the reality here looks different. Some 7,640 people currently hold a firearms permit, but nearly that many illicit weapons were confiscated from the city’s streets during last year alone. Chicago officials say Illinois has no requirement, comparable to Chicago’s, that gun owners immediately report their lost or stolen weapons to deter straw buyers. Consequently those outside the city can, in the words of one city official, carry guns to gang members in the city with “zero accountability.â€
And a relatively common sentence in state court for gun possession for offenders without other felonies is one year in prison, which really may mean a penalty of six months, said Anita Alvarez, the Cook County state’s attorney, who said such punishments failed to serve as a significant enough deterrent for seasoned criminals who may see a modest prison stint as the price of doing business.
“The way the laws are structured facilitates the flow of those guns to hit our streets,†Garry F. McCarthy, the Chicago police superintendent, said in an interview, later adding, “Chicago may have comprehensive gun laws, but they are not strict because the sanctions don’t exist.â€
In the weeks since the mass shooting in Newtown, Conn., Toni Preckwinkle, the Cook County Board president, has introduced a countywide provision requiring gun owners beyond the city limits to report lost or stolen guns, though a first offense would result simply in a $1,000 fine. In the city, Mayor Rahm Emanuel has pressed for increased penalties for those who violate the city’s gun ordinance by failing to report their guns missing or possessing an assault weapon.
“Our gun strategy is only as strong as it is comprehensive, and it is constantly being undermined by events and occurrences happening outside the city — gun shows in surrounding counties, weak gun laws in neighboring states like Indiana and the inability to track purchasing,†Mr. Emanuel said. “This must change.â€
State lawmakers, too, are soon expected to weigh new state provisions like an assault weapons ban, as Chicago already has. But the fate of the proposals is uncertain in a state with wide-open farming and hunting territory downstate.
“It’s going to be a fight,†said State Representative Jack D. Franks, a Democrat from Marengo, 60 miles outside Chicago. Complicating matters, an appellate court in December struck down the state’s ban on carrying guns in public, saying that a complete ban on concealed carry is unconstitutional. Illinois is seeking a review of the ruling, even as state lawmakers have been given a matter of months to contemplate conditions under which guns could be allowed in public.
Many here say that even the strictest, most punitive gun laws would not alone be an answer to this city’s violence. “Poverty, race, guns and drugs — you’ve got to deal with all these issues, but you’ve got to start somewhere†said the Rev. Jesse L. Jackson, who was arrested in 2007 while protesting outside Chuck’s Gun Shop, the suburban store long known as a supplier of weapons that make their way to Chicago.
At the store, a clerk said the business followed all pertinent federal, state and local laws, then declined to be interviewed further. Among seized guns that had moved from purchase to the streets of Chicago in a year’s time or less, nearly 20 percent came from Chuck’s, the analysis found. Other guns arrived here that rapidly from gun shops in other parts of this state, Indiana, Wisconsin, Kentucky, Mississippi, Georgia, Iowa and more.
“Chicago is not an island,†said David Spielfogel, senior adviser to Mr. Emanuel. “We’re only as trong as the weakest gun law in surrounding states.â€
Graphic: Where 50,000 Guns Recovered in Chicago Came From
By Monica Davey
CHICAGO — Not a single gun shop can be found in this city because they are outlawed. Handguns were banned in Chicago for decades, too, until 2010, when the United States Supreme Court ruled that was going too far, leading city leaders to settle for restrictions some describe as the closest they could get legally to a ban without a ban. Despite a continuing legal fight, Illinois remains the only state in the nation with no provision to let private citizens carry guns in public.
And yet Chicago, a city with no civilian gun ranges and bans on both assault weapons and high-capacity magazines, finds itself laboring to stem a flood of gun violence that contributed to more than 500 homicides last year and at least 40 killings already in 2013, including a fatal shooting of a 15-year-old girl on Tuesday.
To gun rights advocates, the city provides stark evidence that even some of the toughest restrictions fail to make places safer. “The gun laws in Chicago only restrict the law-abiding citizens and they’ve essentially made the citizens prey,†said Richard A. Pearson, executive director of the Illinois State Rifle Association. To gun control proponents, the struggles here underscore the opposite — a need for strict, uniform national gun laws to eliminate the current patchwork of state and local rules that allow guns to flow into this city from outside.
“Chicago is like a house with two parents that may try to have good rules and do what they can, but it’s like you’ve got this single house sitting on a whole block where there’s anarchy,†said the Rev. Ira J. Acree, one among a group of pastors here who have marched and gathered signatures for an end to so much shooting. “Chicago is an argument for laws that are statewide or, better yet, national.â€
Chicago’s experience reveals the complications inherent in carrying out local gun laws around the nation. Less restrictive laws in neighboring communities and states not only make guns easy to obtain nearby, but layers of differing laws — local and state — make it difficult to police violations. And though many describe the local and state gun laws here as relatively stringent, penalties for violating them — from jail time to fines — have not proven as severe as they are in some other places, reducing the incentive to comply.
Lately, the police say they are discovering far more guns on the streets of Chicago than in the nation’s two more populous cities, Los Angeles and New York. They seized 7,400 guns here in crimes or unpermitted uses last year (compared with 3,285 in New York City), and have confiscated 574 guns just since Jan. 1 — 124 of them last week alone.
More than a quarter of the firearms seized on the streets here by the Chicago Police Department over the past five years were bought just outside city limits in Cook County suburbs, according to an analysis by the University of Chicago Crime Lab. Others came from stores around Illinois and from other states, like Indiana, less than an hour’s drive away. Since 2008, more than 1,300 of the confiscated guns, the analysis showed, were bought from just one store, Chuck’s Gun Shop in Riverdale, Ill., within a few miles of Chicago’s city limits.
Efforts to compare the strictness of gun laws and the level of violence across major American cities are fraught with contradiction and complication, not least because of varying degrees of coordination between local and state laws and differing levels of enforcement. In New York City, where homicides and shootings have decreased, the gun laws are generally seen as at least as strict as Chicago’s, and the state laws in New York and many of its neighboring states are viewed as still tougher than those in and around Illinois. Philadelphia, like cities in many states, is limited in writing gun measures that go beyond those set by Pennsylvania law. Some city officials there have chafed under what they see as relatively lax state controls.
In Chicago, the rules for owning a handgun — rewritten after the outright ban was deemed too restrictive in 2010 — sound arduous. Owners must seek a Chicago firearms permit, which requires firearms training, a background check and a state-mandated firearm owner’s identification card, which requires a different background review for felonies and mental illness. To prevent straw buyers from selling or giving their weapons to people who would not meet the restrictions — girlfriends buying guns for gang members is a common problem, the police here say — the city requires permitted gun owners to report their weapons lost, sold or stolen.
Still, for all the regulations, the reality here looks different. Some 7,640 people currently hold a firearms permit, but nearly that many illicit weapons were confiscated from the city’s streets during last year alone. Chicago officials say Illinois has no requirement, comparable to Chicago’s, that gun owners immediately report their lost or stolen weapons to deter straw buyers. Consequently those outside the city can, in the words of one city official, carry guns to gang members in the city with “zero accountability.â€
And a relatively common sentence in state court for gun possession for offenders without other felonies is one year in prison, which really may mean a penalty of six months, said Anita Alvarez, the Cook County state’s attorney, who said such punishments failed to serve as a significant enough deterrent for seasoned criminals who may see a modest prison stint as the price of doing business.
“The way the laws are structured facilitates the flow of those guns to hit our streets,†Garry F. McCarthy, the Chicago police superintendent, said in an interview, later adding, “Chicago may have comprehensive gun laws, but they are not strict because the sanctions don’t exist.â€
In the weeks since the mass shooting in Newtown, Conn., Toni Preckwinkle, the Cook County Board president, has introduced a countywide provision requiring gun owners beyond the city limits to report lost or stolen guns, though a first offense would result simply in a $1,000 fine. In the city, Mayor Rahm Emanuel has pressed for increased penalties for those who violate the city’s gun ordinance by failing to report their guns missing or possessing an assault weapon.
“Our gun strategy is only as strong as it is comprehensive, and it is constantly being undermined by events and occurrences happening outside the city — gun shows in surrounding counties, weak gun laws in neighboring states like Indiana and the inability to track purchasing,†Mr. Emanuel said. “This must change.â€
State lawmakers, too, are soon expected to weigh new state provisions like an assault weapons ban, as Chicago already has. But the fate of the proposals is uncertain in a state with wide-open farming and hunting territory downstate.
“It’s going to be a fight,†said State Representative Jack D. Franks, a Democrat from Marengo, 60 miles outside Chicago. Complicating matters, an appellate court in December struck down the state’s ban on carrying guns in public, saying that a complete ban on concealed carry is unconstitutional. Illinois is seeking a review of the ruling, even as state lawmakers have been given a matter of months to contemplate conditions under which guns could be allowed in public.
Many here say that even the strictest, most punitive gun laws would not alone be an answer to this city’s violence. “Poverty, race, guns and drugs — you’ve got to deal with all these issues, but you’ve got to start somewhere†said the Rev. Jesse L. Jackson, who was arrested in 2007 while protesting outside Chuck’s Gun Shop, the suburban store long known as a supplier of weapons that make their way to Chicago.
At the store, a clerk said the business followed all pertinent federal, state and local laws, then declined to be interviewed further. Among seized guns that had moved from purchase to the streets of Chicago in a year’s time or less, nearly 20 percent came from Chuck’s, the analysis found. Other guns arrived here that rapidly from gun shops in other parts of this state, Indiana, Wisconsin, Kentucky, Mississippi, Georgia, Iowa and more.
“Chicago is not an island,†said David Spielfogel, senior adviser to Mr. Emanuel. “We’re only as trong as the weakest gun law in surrounding states.â€
Graphic: Where 50,000 Guns Recovered in Chicago Came From
D
Deleted member 33
Guest
Of course they can't.
Until the borders are tightened guns will always find themselves in areas not permitted.
Rich H
Do you mean city limits? State borders? All those are just lines on a map. I think they rather try to find a nationwide solution so it can be applied and enforced everywhere. To attempt to have a gun free city in a country which isn't can't work.
I realize that it's difficult to understand how Americans are reluctant to give up our AR/M style rifles and high cap mags,but many of us realize the government will never be free of corruption as long as Washington creates a divide between itself and our common citizens. The 2nd amendment was put in place for that reason and is not outdated in the least. We are a fiery people when it comes to our freedoms.
Pro gunners are the vast majority here regardless of what you may see or hear from mainstream(liberal) media. As for the answer to gun violence, all we can do is enforce the laws we already have(they are very loose), get rid of the loopholes in the system, and hire more of the great guys from CP World to fill in the gaps. I believe every qualifying US family should own an AR.Most of them I know already do.
Pro gunners are the vast majority here regardless of what you may see or hear from mainstream(liberal) media. As for the answer to gun violence, all we can do is enforce the laws we already have(they are very loose), get rid of the loopholes in the system, and hire more of the great guys from CP World to fill in the gaps. I believe every qualifying US family should own an AR.Most of them I know already do.
I try to respect all points of view and I realize the cultural differences which set most US citizens apart from their British or European counterparts. Furthermore, this gun debate is merely an internal US affair and although I may have an opinion it obviously means nothing as I don't live on that side of the pond. However, there is something which I always find a bit puzzling. Many times we can read a passionate defence of the 2nd Amendment used as an argument in this debate, the claim that it is the last resort common citizens have against a tyrannical government or a government going rogue, and I wonder, in what helped the 2nd Amendment to prevent some of the controversial measures taken and new laws passed since 9/11? Sure the right to bear and keep arms is not the ultimate right and there are others which deserve a passionate defence too, perhaps even more so. I don't intend to be antagonistic, I just try to understand.
In the closed thread someone said that 'too much freedom was dangerous' and someone else replied those words were good for people like Hitler and Stalin but in fact there is no need to go that back in History, George W. Bush said the same thing. In the end it looks like all this heated debate works fine for the government, keeping people focused on one issue while Obama keeps signing new stuff which no doubt would astonish, to say the least, the Founding Fathers.
In the closed thread someone said that 'too much freedom was dangerous' and someone else replied those words were good for people like Hitler and Stalin but in fact there is no need to go that back in History, George W. Bush said the same thing. In the end it looks like all this heated debate works fine for the government, keeping people focused on one issue while Obama keeps signing new stuff which no doubt would astonish, to say the least, the Founding Fathers.
That may be true but keeping our focus on guns (and retaining that right) is the ONE thing we'll have to stop his madness when it goes too far. See? It's not paranoia if they're really after you.
So no one can explain the high murder rate in Chicago other than they get guns from out of state. Washington DC tried that same argument about guns coming in from Virginia but it didn't wash. Virginia has zero tolerance on gun crimes and prosecutes them aggressively (as it should be). The two areas border each other yet Virginia has extremely low gun crime as opposed to DC. Hint: It isn't the guns. It's moral decay and governments lack of prosecuting gun crimes.
I did not think the intent for Chicago's gun laws where to lower crime. I thought is was for the corrupt yankee beat cops to screw with the security industry making them selves more available cheaper in armed close protection gigs.
If it was to lower there gun crime then they could have seen in the first quarter of that new one it was not going to work.
It was pure corruption with zero regard for law abiding citizens, unless they could afford to pay. The police in that city will care only on pay day.
As for DC, more corruption than Kabul and twice as violent. To think Karzi took the advice of these democrats to lower corruption.
If it was to lower there gun crime then they could have seen in the first quarter of that new one it was not going to work.
It was pure corruption with zero regard for law abiding citizens, unless they could afford to pay. The police in that city will care only on pay day.
As for DC, more corruption than Kabul and twice as violent. To think Karzi took the advice of these democrats to lower corruption.
KingLeonidas
Longterm Registered User
"So no one can explain the high murder rate in Chicago other than they get guns from out of state"
I doubt it's got anything to do with gun laws ... or the Second Ammendment of the US Constitution. It's much more related to an expansion of activity by the Sinaloa drug cartel in Mexico. Chapo Guzman has a direct marketing line into Chicago and is actively expanding his trade. It's that kind of stuff that is getting people killed.
KL
I doubt it's got anything to do with gun laws ... or the Second Ammendment of the US Constitution. It's much more related to an expansion of activity by the Sinaloa drug cartel in Mexico. Chapo Guzman has a direct marketing line into Chicago and is actively expanding his trade. It's that kind of stuff that is getting people killed.
KL
There is really no need to get guns out of state when the state already has plenty of them. If they do need to run some business St. Louis meth dealers often make trades right near Chester on the boarder.
Small time traffickers purchasing off of cartels do not need to go higher that St. Louis because the profit margins are so minimal it is not worth the risk north of that city.
If it was direct sales from the cartels, they would mostly arm there own and those protecting there assets. No need in arming some wise ass that may decide they want to have a hostile take because they have managed a few city blocks.
Doing it for money, this would be a hard one because if it is anything short of a Dillon mini gun then it is just not worth its street weight in cocaine.
People often misconstrue Chicago with the rest of the state when the rest of the state does its best to avoid Chicago. Most are just country folks wanting to live how they have been living for the last 100 years and they have plenty of weapons them self.
SCT
Security Directors
Your opinion, or based on research?
So true! I have in-laws in rural illinois and everyone in the farming community (95% of Illinois) have guns. They are also FORCED by law to have a FOID (firearms owner identification card) and can be arrested for a felony if caught with a gun without it. The majority of people in those communities hunt or do critter control with their guns, as well as self defense. I constantly hear how Chicago f**ks it up for everyone regarding guns and the infringement of their right to bear arms.
D
Deleted member 33
Guest
SCT
Security Directors
Common sense that's not so common
Rich H
Your opinion then and not based on factual research
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