ACID - Defence. Tactics. After Care.

O

Oddjob

Longterm Registered User
It seems to be a daily occurrence now. (5 acid attacks in 90 minutes at one point)
This has got to be a discussion topic.
Case studies, how, what process of delivery.
How can it be guarded against.
An umbrella. (Coming into its own on this one I feel)
Wearing glasses, gloves,etc.
How do you treat the burns rapidly and with best effect.
It's a devastating prospect and fear inducing. Not unlike a knife in some ways. The ease of access and the low level of skill required to use it; is a daily threat to us and our clients.
Discuss at will.
We need to learn and quick
 
Stop Acid Attacks, a leading campaign against Acid Violence, issued the following advice for Britons:

1. Immediately wash affected body part of patient with plenty of fresh or saline water.

2. Don’t rinse the burn area with dirty water as it can cause severe infection.

3. Keep flushing the affected burn area with plenty of cool water,(not very cold) until the patient’s burning sensation starts fading. It may take 30-45 minutes.

4. Remove all the jewelry or clothing which had contact with acid.

5. Don’t apply any kind of cream, ointment on the affected area as it may slow the treatment procedure by doctors.

6. Rush the patient to a burn specialty hospital having isolated wards for burn patients
 
SE5CP said:
Stop Acid Attacks, a leading campaign against Acid Violence, issued the following advice for Britons:

1. Immediately wash affected body part of patient with plenty of fresh or saline water.

2. Don’t rinse the burn area with dirty water as it can cause severe infection.

3. Keep flushing the affected burn area with plenty of cool water,(not very cold) until the patient’s burning sensation starts fading. It may take 30-45 minutes.

4. Remove all the jewelry or clothing which had contact with acid.

5. Don’t apply any kind of cream, ointment on the affected area as it may slow the treatment procedure by doctors.

6. Rush the patient to a burn specialty hospital having isolated wards for burn patients
Click to expand...

I used to work with hazchems in industry, so I'd love to know what their reasoning is for not using very cold water. Our emergency showers were at 5 degrees Celcius, the coldness slows down any chemical reaction. If we got contaminated we had to stay under for 15 mins, so any colder and they'd have been treating us for hypothermia.

It is worth bearing in mind that bleach and other alkalines have also been used in attacks and you won't know which has been used but water or saline will do for either. But speed is of the essence, I'd rather use water from a pond or similar than wait any length of time. Certainly anything else drinkable and reasonably neutral pH such as beer or milk would be preferable to waiting. Also, use lots, copious amounts. But having a small bottle of water with you all the time would at least allow you to get the worst of it off.

Also, you have to be careful not to make it worse by washing into the eyes, or nose or mouth so don't wash substances from the top of the head onto the face. If their clothes are contaminated and you can get them off without the skin peeling, cut them off rather than moving that clothing over other bits, especially the face. So having suitable scissors and latex or nitrile gloves would be essential.

Another thing to note is that if the victim is wearing any sort of cream (including cream based make-up), it may reduce the reaction but it may also stop it being washed off as effectively. I'll not even get into the issues of how plastic false eyelashes might react and end up with bits of melted plastic in the skin.

Best defence - move out of the way, no substitute to that really. Some people have a natural instinct to block, others have a natural instinct to move. It was seen in the west Cumbria shootings in 2009 that some people dived for cover, others instinctively put their hands or arms up to shield their face. The latter ones came off very badly. Also, close your eyes and if it hits you don't open them again until it is washed off. If your clothes are water repellent it could give some short term protection, at least more of it running off. But better to note that Gortex is resistant to most chemicals.
 
I was discussing this last night with a guy I know - he's young and a bit 'enthusiastic' so thought I'd post a key part of our chat here in case anyone else is thinking like him

He said - 'Carry something Alkaline to neutralize any acid thrown at your Principal'

BAD IDEA

The best treatment is already sated above, wash with lots of water, failing that wash with anything to reduce the risk of permanent damage.

Alkaline isn't a good idea because:
- You don't actually know that it was an acid thrown in the first place, it could easily have been Sodium Hydroxide (Caustic Soda) which is a strong Alkaline and does a great job of dissolving bodies.
- Most processes to neutralize a strong acid generates lots of heat, so you swap chemical burns for exothermic burns
- If your Alkaline is much stronger than the acid, that just burns them instead

As with any threat, plan to avoid it in the first place
 
Thankyou all..and keep it coming.
Water seems to be the answer and plenty of it. Portable water in a bottle for eyes must be the first step.
As with most chemicals - don't rub. Just keep flushing away from the eyes and skin.
("Would it matter if it was carbonated water - fizzy" : ...... I wouldn't have thought so was my answer)
Remove clothing and anything that may retain the chemical (adopted this term rather that perpetuate the inaccurate term Acid)
Use an emergency blade, scissors or tear. Get the contaminated clothing off quick.
Get to a water source to continue flushing. Be that 2 crates of water in your vehicle, a camel back water carrier, a shower at a gym or hose pipe and flush for 15 minutes or so in cool/cold water. Get the eyes and face clear first then work away. Get to a medical facility as soon as reasonably possible.

Is what I seem to be formulating.

Prevention.
Do your job properly. Keep moving.
Use my trusty umbrella to distract, block and deter.
Carry a goretex coat (just bought a new one) as a defence blanket.
Keep the windows up in the car
(A lot of ME clients turn the AC off and have the windows open. That stops) plan your routes - you're doing that already; nearest gyms, spas, water sources, treatment centres.-right. Know your surroundings. Absence of the normal, presence of the abnormal etc.
This isn't just a thug problem. I believe an attack was perpetrated just off of KPG yesterday. That's billionaires row in London.
The authorities must make this a crime not worth doing or at least the consequences so severe that it stops its popularity overnight.
It's a life changing attack. Make the punishment life changing also. With a life sentence carrying a minimum of 25 years.
I look forward to more input;
be that in the form of questions, answers or quotes from the 'little knowledge is a dangerous thing' brigade. Well meaning as they are.

Here's a question ; why has it become a popular weapon of late.?
 
I think it's getting popular because:
- It's current, in the news so people who 'want to hurt someone' are getting to hear about it
- it's fairly easy to get hold of what you need, unlike a firearm etc
- it's easy to hide; looks like a bottle of water whereas a knife is a knife
- it causes horrific injuries, which is what the scumbags are seeking. You shoot or knife someone and they potentially die that's the end of it, but disfigure their face for life, that's much better.
 
Great Discussion,

The fact that we could never know what the attacker had used limits the treatment to water, the dilution of the acid or alkaline until neutralised can be our only responsible action.

I do wonder if as well as water increased air flow to cool the effected area would help or at least provide some comfort, possibly use tins of compressed air or simply a hand held fan.

As for the lunatics that are carrying out these acid attacks, as stated by Mr. Blonde, it is the horrific damage caused by a simplistic delivery method that must be the attraction, that with the ability to be a meter or more away from the victim rather than using a knife and being and arms length away.

Regards

premier
 
This crime is big in Pakistan/ India region.
We need to change our laws in order to keep up with the way criminals have adapted. There needs to be a massive sentence and consequences for carrying out acid attacks in this country.
 
I wouldn't use air, the extra oxygen might help the reaction, like fanning a fire. I'm not sure on that, but I've never heard it suggested all the time I have worked with hazchems.


I think there are a number of reasons it has become so prevalent. The government made it easier to get in one of their red tape burning sessions. Paramedics have improved greatly from the days we just had ambulance men, they are much better at keeping people alive. Surgery has improved at keeping people alive and minimising permanent injuries, but also at cosmetic surgery in repairing cuts. Chemical burns are something that it is very difficult to treat effectively, so people are often left permanently scarred. There is also the fact that it is easier to conceal than a knife or gun. But also I think the huge publicity there has been over attacks encourages people just in the same way that one spree shooting encourages many more.
 
I might also be wise getting pH testing paper so that you can test what has been thrown. But treat anything being thrown as potentially hazardous, as there are things that won't be obviously bad for you initially but are very nasty indeed.
Also, see if it is possible to get some sort of swab in a bottle that can be used to take a sample, that may aid in treatment or forensics.
 
And don't forget your gloves - whatever mess it's making of the Principal it's going to be doing the same to your hands while you try and sort them out - apart from looking pretty awful, scar tissue all over your hands will limit their future use and could potentially mean an end to your career if you can't grip, type, operate a mobile, drive, fight, shoot etc, as well as making it difficult to eat, grip cutlery, play sport, touch the missus...
 
After reading the whole post, we can acquire several useful tips about how to fix the same issue in easy way. Thanks for your nice sharing.
 
MrBlonde said:
Sodium Hydroxide (Caustic Soda) which is a strong Alkaline and does a great job of dissolving bodies.
Click to expand...

Oh dear why did you tell me that, it's now mentally noted, I'll not need to keep pigs anymore, what isle is caustic soda in at Tesco?.

Joking aside all points above are valid, water and loads of it dont know if temperature matters but whatever it is just keep flushing the offending chemical away with a Ph neutral, that's what I'd do right or wrong. Have we got any medics on the forum?
 
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