CP driving and the law...

Reminds me of this one time when I was in a marked police car, driving down a 2 lane road at night, when I had an older benz and an SUV approaching me at a high rate of speed, the SUV drove extremely close to the car and offset. When they passed me, the SUV actually caused me (in a MARKED police vehicle) to swerve off road to avoid collision. I flashed my overheads,looked in the review mirror and got no reply (flashing blue lights back), so we figured this must be a case of road rage or domestic violence or something. To find out whats going on, I did a Uturn,turned on lights and sirens and tried to catch up. When I finally did, the SUV kept swerving and tailgating. When i tried to pass (mind you still with strobes and sirens) he got in my way, so I couldnt pass him. Of course I had radioed for back up units by this time, and a road block stopped them rather quickly. First thing happend then was that a guy jumped out of the passenger seat of the SUV with an MP-5. If he would have raised it, all hell would have broken loose. Long story short, this happened in Europe, NOT Iraq. And yes, It was a CP team,guarding a high ranking military individual. Initially, us cops actually got our a$$es chewed,until they gave us a chance to explain.
- The DV, or client,if you will, was actually in the SUV, so this CP team endangered the person they were supposed to protect numerous times: a) when I attempted to pass, they got in between me and the first car..granted,they avoided me from overtaking, but to put your client in between a suspected agressor (...?) and your "unimportant" lead vehicle..i dont know about that,you guys are the pros..and they actually had strobes in their cars, if they would have flashed them once, I would have backed up.
b) if you guys get chased by a cop car for a few miles (and you decide for whatever reason NOT to use your radio to contact the station and have them get the stupid cop of your a$$) and then get stopped at a road block with even more uniformed police with M-4's and M-203's and police cars,with flashing lights,K-9 and all..would you jump out of the car with an MP-5 ready to go (oh and use the car for cover while leaving the door open) WHILE YOUR CLIENT IS IN THE BACKSEAT? The CP guys in the benz , which turned out to be the lead vehicle, never even rolled down a window.
c) they never sent a heads up to the cops and the cars they were using were nowhere close to what our local teams use, so we had no idea. I dont want to say exactly what it was,but if the SUV would have had chrome 22" rims on top of what it looked like, I would have stopped it and checked for drugs,weapons and gang affiliation, if I would have seen it anywhere.

But all that aside, my point: if they would have initially just travelled down this good ol european highway at a moderate rate of speed with decent distance...NONE of that would have happened. Why would you draw attention to you if it is not necessary??I am still in awe about these guys, who, btw, were "highly trained" US Army CPO's..i would have fired the entire team that very night if i was the client.


I still take that as a very good experience, and at least here in the somewhat safe part of the world, I drive considerably normal when on detail. Because unless you have an actual threat posed, I dont think you need to have unwanted attention by surrounding traffic or cops. And as far as the speed goes..a good friend of mine told me once: can your client REALLY afford the bad PR if you decide to haul a$$ through a city just because -and then run over a little kid on the crosswalk? Harsh,but true, me thinks.
All that of course goes out of the window when you are in a hostile environment
 
Scab said:
Awesome thanks for the answers gents.

I do know of the backup vehicle of a two vehicle packet that was pulled on the way up a motorway by police and the driver being given a talking to about tailgating and the dangers of it. The lead vehicle carrying the instructor just carried on...

Now that the straddling question is cleared up - a bit more on the tactical side of that, since it is often taught as 'standard' regardless to threat and is something that is draws attention, why is it taught as a standard practise on commercial CP courses?
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The fact the instructor carried on speaks volumes, he obviously didn't have the right answers for any questions!

On a motorway (as your comment refers to motorway driving), the reference only a fool breaks the 2 second rule is paramount. Straddling lanes on a motorway is a technique I find bemusing, when under training for these roles it is important to take into consideration the specific threat to the convoy, the VIP and who really is at most risk.

RTA/RTC's are the biggest threat when mobile in this instance, unfortunately because the SIA endorsed C&G's & BTEC syllabuses do not cover the specific roles of the lead and back up driver and most exercise scenarios are conducted with 2 insignias joined at the bumpers...... Unfortunately people believe this is the way to drive.

Invest in relevant training, with experienced instructors who teach a variety of scenarios from hostile environment considerations to convoys and low profile moves. In addition to conducting dynamic risk assessments and quantifying each situation as it arises, one method is by profiling the driver of a car in which you have immediate concerns with.

What you need is a professional collaboration of appropriate fit for purpose training, delivered in a logical progressive sequence which is completely relevant for this specific market.
 
MC222 said:
I did miss out police. But as I said, I haven't driven at speed for a while now, so the ability degrades like all skills.

I don't know about CP drivers being prosecuted, but I know of one or two police advanced drivers who have had bad bumps, which proves that you cannot wipe out the human error factor.
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MC222,

I applaud you for stating professionally, that skills fade over time, not many people in this industry have the ability to admit it and or recognise it.
 
I very much agree with this and whilst I still am lucky enough to maintain a good level of skill and have the opportunity to quite regularly use my training. I do miss having another of similar skill level sitting along side to debrief the occasional drive.
Skills decrease without constant use and constructive critique and if there is only bad practice being taught or given on these courses then when will it stop bad practice being acceptable, Corporate manslaughter for the training provider?
MC222 said:
That's probably because recognising your own weaknesses and training needs is also a skill:~)
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pyyp1980 said:
Sorry for multiple posts. I'm typing on my phone and I keep losing where I am so this is easier.

Second point.
The two second rule isn't actually law. It's a guideline. Again you wouldn't he allowed to do it on a driving test,L or advanced. tailgating isn't usually considered until a crash happens. In any case the front driver should be planning far enough ahead to avoid any collisions with his colleague behind him.

As for being caught by police and what happened I don't know. All I know is that I have applied advanced driving techniques like straight lining roundabouts and bends with a police car followinge and they didn't do anything.

Hope that helps.

Pete
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In any case the front driver should be planning far enough ahead to avoid any collisions with his colleague behind him.
 
tenvis said:
In any case the front driver should be planning far enough ahead to avoid any collisions with his colleague behind him.
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What like reversing into the support car??????????????

The lead vehicle drives and whilst aware of the considerations of the support vehicle, the support vehicle maintains the gap and provides back up and support for the lead vehicle.
The support vehicle should have a good view of all going on ahead and around allowing the lead vehicle to get on with its job and is not there job to worry about having collisions with the support vehicle.
The lead vehicle does not maintain the gap!
 
tenvis said:
In any case the front driver should be planning far enough ahead to avoid any collisions with his colleague behind him.
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I see it a bit differently to you, tenvis. I'm not bright, nor am I quick. I was taught very early on that the driver of the lead car/backup car/support car'pilot car, whatever you like to call it, must have one thing in his head above all else and that is that he/she must drive as if driving a pantechnican/ HGV type vehicle and thus look for appropriate gaps for the whole team to get out of the junction.

This alone will ensure that when the lead veh moves off, or out of a junction, a vehicle already on the major road doesn't compromise the convoy by slipping in. With a team who probably don't have much formal training and have hardly ever trained together, that is the most important thing. It also slows down drivers who are being too eager to prove themselves as a BG driver.

I say that the technique is the most important thing because if, heaven forbid, a bump happens, the traffic cops will care very little that you are 'protecting' someone. This applies to all the superduper BG driving techniques - we don't do it enough (unfotunately:~( to be really skilled up like SB or Royalty protection, who get training days to practice, as well as vehicles, unlimited fuel AND they are getting paid to practice, as well.
 
ryco said:
What like reversing into the support car??????????????

The lead vehicle drives and whilst aware of the considerations of the support vehicle, the support vehicle maintains the gap and provides back up and support for the lead vehicle.
The support vehicle should have a good view of all going on ahead and around allowing the lead vehicle to get on with its job and is not there job to worry about having collisions with the support vehicle.
The lead vehicle does not maintain the gap!
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I personally believe there is an element of both in each drivers role. The lead driver makes progress with considerations and positioning for the backing vehicle, there should then be the same courtesy of the backing driver for the lead vehicle.

Both drivers should have the best all round vision available to them, for the area they are in whilst considering the aims of the move, motorways being a different aim to moving through Piccadilly Circus for example.

I have found the term 'wireless connectivity' an extremely relevant reference for 2 car or convoy driving. If both drivers have connected wirelessly then the drive and result seem to be smooth, seamless and flowing. If the drivers don't have that connectivity, then the results usually end in a visit to the garage. Some drivers can connect in a heart beat and this generally comes from a driver who is proficient and suitably experienced in both leading and following and can appreciate the considerations and positioning for both vehicles.

Collisions can still happen when you have an experienced backing driver and a hesitant and inexperienced lead driver. Information, Position, Speed, Gear & ACCELERATION must be adapted for 2 vehicles when working together. Hesitant lead drivers are as dangerous as over zealous backing drivers.

All of these considerations vary depending on the role of the convoy, profile of the principal and type of road & surroundings you are in.

Driving has so many uncontrollable variables as you are interacting with a live enemy who independently react in different ways to each situation.

Convoys can also create their own problems, recently on the M40 I witnessed 3 coaches from the same company driving in convoy, travelling at the speed limit and with 100m spacings between them, the first coach moved from lane 1 to lane 2 as he knew that lane 1 in a miles time would turn into a filter lane (1.5 miles long filter lane) for the exit of High Wycombe.

Coach three, some 1/2 a mile behind the lead coach anticipated coach 1 and took the earliest opportunity to take lane 2, coach 2 then 1 following suit. Now you have a rolling convoy forcing all traffic at rush hour into lane 3 and nothing in lane 1. Well momentarily anyhow, before a whole array of cars decided not to wait to complete the overtake and proceeded to take lane 1 early.

I guess the aim of the convoy was to keep moving and assist each colleague in making uninterrupted flowing progress. The result actually was total confusion and total loss of control as all other road users over took, under took, and jumped in between the coaches in a way that was not safe, controlled or predictable.

Considerations should be given to the consequences imposed on other road users from tactical positioning. Without the luxury of blue lights and variable tone horns, the security professional has no control of other road users.
 
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