MSO,FPOS I, PDSD and Weapons Competency combined

[SCT]

The thing is if a training provider is going to have to teach MSO's from different companies then they will have to have an armoury of about 10 different weapons. I work for two companies and have access to 5 various weapons.

Well, we own only 1 training provider and we have access to pretty much every weapon there is out there (including M2's and anti armor stuff), ie hundreds, as do other quality training providers like Eurotactical for example. Again (no surprise here), Mark is absolutely right when he says

.... If training is to be to the required standards as per ISO/PAS 28007, IMO 1443 and PSC.1, TPs should get them or not conduct the training.

The British "make do" attitude, while admirable in times of adversity, isn't appropriate it when it comes to real firearms training. This whole scenario of having to use single pull and .22LR weapons to train in the UK is a source of great amusement to the rest of the world. TP's in the UK need to understand it doesn't cut it.

As for the word "specific", here's what it means to me. A company say to me that all candidates for employment with them need to be trained on AR15/M16, AK47, G36, (both semi and full auto) Glock 17, Sig 2022, Beretta M9, in 9mm and 1911 in .45 then we will train them on EXACTLY those weapons and calibers, or any other weapons and calibers "specified", and not mickey mouse substitutes. If we did substitute other weapons when the client has given us a "specification" then we wouldn't be in business very long.

You cannot play at being a firearms training. Either you do it right, or if you can't do it right where you are, you move to a place where you can or you don't do it at all. Why do you think Eurotactical are in France and we're in Florida?

 

[SCT]

Some TPs do have, If training is to be to the required standards as per ISO/PAS 28007, IMO 1443 and PSC.1, TPs should get them or not conduct the training.

The difficulty is that the law in England, Scotland and Wales prohibits training with the specific firearms in the specific calibre.

Just to clarify my opinion of the word specific is the correct firearm, in the correct calibre using the correct system i.e. self loading(semi automatic), others my have a different understanding of the word specific.

What has been acceptable previously is unlikely to be in the future. Either primary legislation in the UK needs to be amended(most unlikely within the next 3 years) to allow training with section 5 firearms or the training will have to be conducted outside the UK.

Another alternative would be to only use section 1 firearms by the PMSCs, then training could lawfully be conducted in the UK on the specific firearms in the specific calibre using the specific system.(manually operated).

What he said......

 

[Mark22150]

UK business, SCEG, SAMI and PMSCs are hoping against hope that HMG will change the law to allow section 5 training for UK PMSCs working on UK flagged ships. There are currently 213 MSOs that have authorisation from the home office to use section 5 firearms on UK flagged ships!

I for one can not see a government wasting time, changing primary legislation to authorise it.

If HMG does try then Land Based security, shooting organisations, and lawful individuals will say me too. That is before the PC brigade, Media and Anti gun lobbyist have started saying "Oh no"!

The Maritime industry is going through changes at the moment, increasing costs, reducing income, competition from overseas companies with lower labour costs etc.

If the law changes and allows section 5 training in the UK, there will probably be no UK MARSEC industry left by that time(3-5yrs).

In the meantime, ISO/PAS 28007 is coming and the word SPECIFIC is the word!!

 

[GI0VANNI]

I must say that Spain changed specifically the law about Private Security personnel gun allowance: we are able to use just revolver (armed security officer:cal 38), semi pistol (Close protection officer: 9mms) and pump action shotgun (cash and vault officer: 12 gauge) EXCEPT for guarding ships under spanish flag in dangerous waters full of somali pirates and sharks with lasers..., them we are allowed (previous training) to handle "war guns" that means auto rifles and caliber over 20mms (say a g36, a k47, gal, g3, laser blaster, barret, M2, rpg, mortar??...)

The funny thing is that
1º no one is able to keep a training shooting range or security requirements for this except for the national army.
2º no one (enterprise) got army help but one from an ex-minister.
3º no one got training but ex-army personnel.
4º no one gets hired now, the fever for security in the ships is over.

 

[GI0VANNI]

Had this saved for later and finally got time and money to dare asking:
Anti terror academy - Maritime security operator course |

Is this any worth (even as a adventure camp as I already know won´t be hired for this kind of job easily and knowing no one)

 

[SCT]

Had this saved for later and finally got time and money to dare asking:
Anti terror academy - Maritime security operator course |

Is this any worth (even as a adventure camp as I already know won´t be hired for this kind of job easily and knowing no one)

And I quote from their website......... “Monster†manager for UK, training instructor - 18 years 22 SAS. WTF?

 

[GI0VANNI]

I assumed means "has been instructor for 18 years and previously SAS for 22 years"??? or even "has been SAS for 22 years and once he was SAS he became instructor 18 years ago"
Is the same way if I put in my CV that have been 15 years in event security (since started university) 8 years as lawyer, 3 as instructor and 2 as security guard and close protection officer, some things can be done at the same time.


MISTAKE; reading the web seems that he has been 18 years in UK army, 18 of these in the 22th regiment os SAS, does this exist?? or may he be just be a poser?

 

[Customloads]

Reading the web seems that he has been 18 years in UK army, 18 of these in the 22nd regiment of SAS, does this exist?? or may he be just be a poser?

*Link removed on account of it sucking*

 

[counterforceslt]

"... the 22nd and 23 regiments are a part of the reserve Territorial Army."

From About the SAS Regiment

No,"21,23 and R squadron (now L Det)are reserve regiments training staff drawn from 22 (Regs)i think you just made an honest mistake.

But whatever they claim ,it would be more up front if they to name the bloke,there is no claim for anonymity in his case.

 

[counterforceslt]

"... the 22nd and 23 regiments are a part of the reserve Territorial Army."

From About the SAS Regiment

Been absent for a short while ,but just read this link,What a crock ,but quite devious in respect of a security company doing a write up of the Regiment, linked (security)to their own company site, Aaargh !I feel ill.

 

[Horizon Security Ltd]

Pardon for the interruption guys, but even if its a single pull system will it still be .22 being fired??

Hi Trueblue, we have 0.22, 5.56 and 7.62 all on single shot/pull.

 

[Horizon Security Ltd]

So Mark, does this mean under ISO 28007 all of these training providers using .22 on their courses will not have their certificates/Training recognised therefore rendering them of no use??

Hi trublue we use 5.56 & &.62 have a look at the media page on our website for pictures of the range, weapons and ammunition used

 

[SCT]

Hi trublue we use 5.56 & &.62 have a look at the media page on our website for pictures of the range, weapons and ammunition used

Unless students certify with the SPECIFIC weapons they will be deployed with, certifications will be completely useless under ISO28007.

No-one deploys with 22LR or single pull firearms and offering training on these firearms and, at the same time, alluding to "competency" (which cannot be achieved in one day on any case) being fit for purpose for operational deployment is duplicitous at best.

 

[trublue]

Thanks Horizon, i thought they all would have been .22 converted.

 

[Horizon Security Ltd]

Unless students certify with the SPECIFIC weapons they will be deployed with, certifications will be completely useless under ISO28007.

No-one deploys with 22LR or single pull firearms and offering training on these firearms and, at the same time, alluding to "competency" (which cannot be achieved in one day on any case) being fit for purpose for operational deployment is duplicitous at best.

Hi Trublue, I do not see why you are not getting that we use 5.56 & 7.62 forget 0.22 that is just an added extra, the weapons we use are AK 74, Ak47, Styer, VZ & Dragunov all of which I have used over the past 4 years on transits and all have been single pull, I have never deployed on maritime operations with a semi automatic weapon, if a company approach us which they have done on multiple occasions so we can train there guys we will buy the weapon system that they deploy there guys with, its as simple as that.

I understand what you are saying about a 1 day course not making someone competent and I agree with that, Id also say a 3 day course or 5 day course would not make someone competent but im pretty sure there years of military experience and maritime experience before attending the course should do, if someone is not competent we will simply deem them as not competent, there is a need for this course by clients to the security companies then from the security companies to the contractor/employee, we provide a solution to that need, I would love to make the course longer and charge more as that's the nature of the training business, however we don't as its not needed as all the guys on the course are former military with years of weapon handling experience.

 

[Horizon Security Ltd]

Thanks Horizon, i thought they all would have been .22 converted.

Hi Trublue, no we have 5.56, 7.62 and 0.22, the 0.22 are semi auto, the 5.56 and 7.62 are single shot/pull as they are section 1 firearms.

 

[trublue]

A good few companies are deploying with semi auto weapons such as SLR, G3 etc.

 

[counterforceslt]

Could you clarify please that the system you are adhering to with regards of training is being held at a UK licensed shooting range/club ? hence the 2nd monday of each month is classed as an open day of the club to attract new members,therefore i presume the certification is classed as the NRA guide for the SSS ticket (safe shooting system) which is based on the military SST card (safe system of training)for shooting on MOD ranges ? if i am correct so far how are you getting away with issuing this training to only probationary members ? as the MOD to NRA state that after the six months probationary period if and when the committee of the club give full membership to the individual he/she can then do the training for SST card, to also issue the card the club must be NRA affiliated or the member must be an individual member of the NRA this training is then given freely with no charge by the club to its full members to state they are proficient in the weapons type stated on their card,this card can only be signed off by the club chairman and then used at any MOD ranges..If you have a different method within the UK system i would be interested in knowing this for my own benefit ? as for you stating the drills for single pull (straight pull) and semi auto ,plus burst fire are exactly the same ! well not in my book , they have totally different applications, even a bolt action is totally different to a straight pull as we know that you eject the empty case with bolt/breech open even before removing the mag (mag removal normally done first if not applying safety to make safe) with a straight pull or paddle release this feeds the next round into the breech if the mag is still in place with rounds in ,without teaching anybody on this site to suck eggs as i presume the majority on here are firearms profficiant ? this gives a totally differant aspect to fire and movement and any form of tactical drills without the correct training skills applied ,for example a normal right handed shooter would keep his right hand on the pistol grip/finger off the trigger and cock/load the with left hand over the top of breech ,even the m4 varants have got a lug on the bolt carrier for straight pull loading ,i am not trying to be a smart arse in this subject, i genuinely want to know what system of training with paperwork and approval you have in place.If any ?

Horizon Security Ltd,

You didnt answer me this question when first asked ?.

 

[SCT]

Horizon Security Ltd,

You didnt answer me this question when first asked ?.

There have been no straight answers at all

 

[SCT]

Why quote my post then direct your answer to trublue?

Hi Trublue, I do not see why you are not getting that we use 5.56 & 7.62 forget 0.22 that is just an added extra, the weapons we use are AK 74, Ak47, Styer, VZ & Dragunov.......

I'll assume that the post was directed at me anyway. What am I getting at? I am not "getting" at anything I am telling you that if you are delivering "competency" courses using .22LR and single pull versions of of real firearms and then saying that the "competency" is fit for purpose as a qualification for a deployment in the real world where, contrary to your statement, semi auto and full auto firearms are the norm not the exception then I call bullshit.

.......if a company approach us which they have done on multiple occasions so we can train there guys we will buy the weapon system that they deploy there guys with, its as simple as that.

OK, I have a requirement for 12 guys to be trained to a competent standard on AR-15 (.223), M16 (5.56 NATO) select and full auto, AK47 (7.62x39) semi auto and Glock 17/19 in 9mm. Explain to me how you are going to buy those weapons and trainingwith them in the UK.

If you are so confident that;

.......the guys on the course are former military with years of weapon handling experience.

Then what exactly are you selling them?


That's what I am "getting at".