US training
- Thread starter swamp
- Start date
SCT
Security Directors
On a private range, no-one is going to ask for paperwork. That doesn't mean its legal. Here's the thing - a Brit, or any other foreign visitor, visiting the United States is comitting a felony if they so much as put a finger on a firearm. Go to a public range and see. There are two ways to make it legal. Since this is a USP of what we do and how we get a lot of business by making sure people are legal the second they set foot on US soil, I ain't putting it on a forum
Steve Collins
Longterm Registered User
Sorry mate thats a bit of a cop out. I'm not asking what you do but what legislation covers the felony part?
SCT
Security Directors
I don't think its a cop out at all. It is a felony because an alien on a visit visa is a prohibited person. One of the categories of prohibited persons is....."an alien who is unlawfully in the United States or who has been admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa"... that means everyone who enters on VWP or B1/B2 visas.
The argument from people makng money out of tourists is that it is a "grey area". It isn't a grey area at all. It isn't in the interests of ranges to comply with the law. They will tell you that shooting with thier weapon or someone elses isn't "possession" according to the law so its OK. Not according to BATF who define possession as "Possession of a firearm may be either actual or constructive. The latter has been defined as
follows: “Constructive possession exists when a person knowingly has the power and intention at
a given time of exercising dominion and control over the object or over the area in which the object
is located...”. None of this is a secret. As for the legislation that allows us to get round it.... you spend the money on lawyers to find the solution, same as we did
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deleted member 3
New Member
Don't training schools offering firearms have to be registered with Homeland Security Mpctc if they are offering training to foreign nationals? Is that part of the same legislation or is it a different matter entirely?
Just out of interest how does the insurance side stack up if people aren't quite ticking the boxes correctly?
Just out of interest how does the insurance side stack up if people aren't quite ticking the boxes correctly?
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SCT
Security Directors
Firearms training establishments should be registered with DHS. It isn't the same legislation
Great point Gabi. Here's the thing, insurance companies are not in the business of paying out money
If ALL the boxes are not ticked and an incident occurs............ well, I'll let you guess what the outcome of that would be.
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deleted member 3
New Member
Firearms training establishments should be registered with DHS. It isn't the same legislation
Great point Gabi. Here's the thing, insurance companies are not in the business of paying out money
That's what I thought with regard to insurance. Something people don't seem to check out throughly enough. Great for taking your money but look for excuses not to give any back.
SCT
Security Directors
Tell the range master to call ATF and tell them what they are doing and ask them if it's legal. Better still, let me know which range and I'll call ATF
Here's the thing. You tell me what you need to be touching a firearm in the US as a non-immigrant visit visa (B1/B2) or entrant on VWP.
Let's see, shall I believe a) the LEO's working with me, b) BATF, c) Our firearms attorney, d) Federal legislation.....or the guy on the local range who says its OK?
I am not saying it doesn't go on, I am saying its a felony
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Steve Collins
Longterm Registered User
Found the legislation, thanks, interesting debate!
SCT
Security Directors
If you mean 18 USC 922(g), Thats not it
Steve Collins
Longterm Registered User
No, that's not what I'm referring to I'm a licensed importer so was aware of that, I'm referring to the new legislation pertaining to nonimmigrant aliens and hunting permits and the rental of firearms by gun ranges.
SCT
Security Directors
I know what you are talking about, but that's not it.
SCT
Security Directors
Its not about IP. Here's the thing;
A guy is walking down a public road through a public forest thinking about how he can make money from trees. He knows that in the forest there is a money tree and the money from that tree is the ONLY money that is accepted in a shop where he wants to buy something that he needs. You can use other money not from the tree to buy the ting he wants, but its not legal.
The law says that, although no-one can have the money tree, if they find the money tree they can have the fruit. Wanting to buy the thing LEGALLY, he hires someone to help him find the money tree and asks some of his friends who know about money trees to help him find it. After spending a lot of money, time and effort he finds the money tree, gets the money and now he can LEGALLY buy the thing he wanted.
Other people know that he has found the money tree and they ask him to tell them where it is.
In your opinion, should he tell them:
a) Here is the location of the money tree
or
b) Do what I did and look for the tree yourself
I think I drank too much coffee
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SCT
Security Directors
I agree with that 100%. The whole reason the subject came up is that I have a bee in my bonnet about either unscrupulous training companies who KNOW the law putting clients (and themselves) at risk of arrest and possibly imprisonment by not making those clients aware of the law, or ignorant companies who DON'T know the law, when they should, doing the same. Another thing that worries me is insurance. Our insurers INSIST that all the boxes are ticked when allowing visitors to shoot. Eventually, there is going to be an accident, an investigation, arrests, law suits and a resulting total ban on visitors shooting and the victim of the accident will be left without recourse.
The paperwork process is not rocket science, cheap, can be completed in 10 minutes and be done before a visitor sets foot on US soil.
It sounds to me like you're too stubborn to take short cuts and go strictly according to the book...
..KUDOS!
m
Thanks. Not stubborn, just protecting my interests. When the SHTF moment comes, its not only the student that would get arrested
The right way is the only way IMHO...
Keep it up.