BTEC Level 4 diploma

H

HomerCPO

Longterm Registered User
I have seen on the net that the surveillance group do a level 4 btec course for around 5k all in give or take thats full the course modules now also seen that shield consultants are also doing the same level 4 btec for around 2500

Has any one had dealings with either company
 
Before you part with any money, ask yourself: will I be more skilled having taken 2 weeks training in a level 4 certificate than opposed to a 2 weeks Level 3 certificate?

Make sure you ask the training provider what is the difference... ask, what will I actually gain in skills.

I had someone come to see me asking for work back in February after he obtained a Level 4 Certificate (won't name TP). What he did not know was totally unacceptable - I could not believe it! He must have spent all his time on the course asleep or the trainers never turned up!

People will employ you on your skills, experience and how you perform on the ground.

Another question to ask yourself, 'Why hasn't someone created a Level 4 in Close Protection?' Surely anyone with one of those certificates has got to be above the rest? Or would it just be a sales gimmick to lure the unsuspecting?

Peter
 
I admit to having too much free time on my hands at the moment and have spent some time looking at the FAQ's of all the providers mentioned in this thread.

Can someone please explain to me how on earth is it possible to get a certificate in mobile surveillance without having a driving licence?

Not trying to slag anyone off just interested.
 
Rhea,
We get people on our courses who do not drive. Either they have not taken their test yet, they may have been banned from driving or they are from a foreign country and do not feel comfortable driving on our side of the road.

Now, any UK enforcement agency or military unit normally requires that a student undergo an advanced driving course prior to carrying out any surveillance training which is totally reasonable and understandable.

So, back to the question; how are they trained? They are crewed ‘two up’ in the cars and do everything that everyone else does except drive. They take control of the team and give a commentary just as any other person would do sat in the passenger seat they deploy on foot when necessary and prompt the driver.

In the UK enforcement sector (including police) cars are crewed two up. It is only the military and the commercial sector that go out single-handed, which is why your driving has to be second nature.

I do not want to get in to an argument about the pros & cons of being 1 up -v- 2 up (that’s a totally different thread).

The assessment for surveillance qualifications is about surveillance, its tactics, methods & procedures. The assessment is not about driving a car although you cant’ have one with out the other in some respects.

Additionally, I have seen good drivers carrying out very bad drills in the car but if I am driving and being prompted by the ‘non-driver’ on what to do and where to go etc.. you can make an assessment on them and judge whether they understand on what is going on around them.

The whole thing sounds daft and you have posed a good question but it works.

Peter @ ISS
 
In the UK enforcement sector (including police) cars are crewed two up. It is only the military and the commercial sector that go out single-handed, which is why your driving has to be second nature.

Many othre agencies and cops are now 1 up.. . . . . . . . . . . . budget or tactics, that is the question?
 
ISS

Thanks for the reply.

I hadn't actually looked on your site till this morning and was referring to one of the other companies when I asked the question. I was fully expecting you to come back and politely give them some stick. To say I am gob smacked is probably an understatement although maybe I shouldn't be as it has been mentioned on many a CP thread before and I could just about (but only just) see how a CPO could get away with not being able to drive. I never thought to look into the commercial SV training side till "Homercpo" (sorry for the hijack) posted and I was curious about the difference in 3 and 4.

I fully appreciate what you say about commentary, prompting and ready to get out on foot but I would have thought to get a ticket in mobile surveillance you would have to be assessed on your driving abilities? Obviously not up to Police advanced driving standard but at least on using cover vehicles, distances on different roads, no "peeking" from behind large vehicles, reactions when the subject vehicle stops and lots more.

If you cannot or do not drive surely you should only get a ticket in foot surveillance? Is there one?

In your earlier post you said "People will employ you on your skills". Apart from maybe a few places in central London do any actually find employment?

Hope to don't feel this is an attack on you in any way. It's just the commercial training side is all new to me and have only worked with Police trained operatives. (Apart from a few that only do the van work).

 
Rhea,

I didn’t feel it was an attack on me at all. In fact it was a very good point to raise and I agree with you almost entirely but we do not live in the ‘ideal’ world. In the uniformed services, we tend to get a little institutionalised and spoilt by courses, budgets and resources which doesn’t always work in the real world.

I see your point about those that are peeking, driving aggressively, using distance as cover etc and that a non driver cannot experience this. That is why we have the ‘non driver’ prompt and tell the driver what to do in addition to him giving a commentary and controlling the target / team. In some ways he has more in his plate but we try to make the best out of a hard job.

Having said that, even the ‘self professed’ good drivers still don’t read the road and the target correctly. Being a good driver doesn’t mean that you will be good at surveillance, although I see your argument that you need to be able to drive to carry out mobile surveillance. Understandable.

You know, I would say that the majority of guys working on the surveillance circuit have actually had no training in surveillance or driving. A friend of mine is employed full time by one of the major players in the personal injury surveillance sector, out of 40 bods only a handful have had any training. In fact on a recent job, after a standby he came up on the ‘net’, ‘Delta has, that’s the subject towards the roundabout..’ to which his back up replied, ‘You don’t need to say any of that bollocks cos’ I can see the target..’

This is the real world, ring up 20 builders out of the phone book and ask them if they have undergone an apprenticeship. You’ll probably get three if you are lucky.

In respect of a ‘ticket’ just for foot surveillance, yes there is one. We provide a BTEC in foot surveillance, which is carried out in London and incorporates, large buildings (multiple levels & exits) and public transport including the tube.

As for those getting work, yes! The commercial world is very big, especially outside London. Carry out some more research and you’ll see what I mean.

BTW, don't get the Police Level 1, 2 & 3 mixed up with the Btec system. It is not the same and totally different.

Cheers

Peter
 
Great reply and I suppose if I was a TP my reply would be fairly similar although you still haven't got me with "non driver prompt" part. I teach sailing and powerboating and there is no way I could give someone a ticket without them being able to demonstrate being able to control either craft. Your point regarding some "good drivers" not being good at SV is valid but also there are those that are good at the theory but cannot always put it into practice.

I appreciate the Police levels and Btec are different although my life in Police SV was way before they were thought of. I have been in the commercial sector for around 7 years now and have only ever worked with ex Police.

I noticed your London course and that seems excellent. We used to go down there around 4 times a year to get in the practice. Invaluable to those that don't do the tube, buses and cabs on a regular basis.

My point about getting work was aimed solely at those that do not drive. I would say that the commercial side will only get bigger, with the "cuts", over the next few years with some routine government stuff farmed out. I hope you do well.
 
rhea said:
My point about getting work was aimed solely at those that do not drive. I would say that the commercial side will only get bigger, with the "cuts", over the next few years with some routine government stuff farmed out. I hope you do well.
Click to expand...

Hi,

I am not sure to be honest about the 'non drivers' getting work, we don't really get that many. An extra foot person (esp London) is always handy to to get out quickly as you'd be aware. Most of those that attend the London Foot course can drive anyway, they just want to do the whole foot bit.

As I mentioned earlier, the 'non drivers' are normally those who can actually drive but have been banned or those that have too many points on their licenses (which makes them unable to drive on our insurance cover). Also those who come from abroad also drive but are reluctant to drive on our side of the road. We can't make them - safety and all that.

We get the odd youngster from time to time who does not drive (we had a 17 year old do a course for this Duke of Edinburgh Gold believe it or not! (rick folks)) but it inspired and encouraged him to think about joining the Police. He learnt a lot, not just suveillance but also teamwork, respect and reliance. Hope his folks then paid for his driving lessons:)

Peter
 
isstraining said:
Before you part with any money, ask yourself: will I be more skilled having taken 2 weeks training in a level 4 certificate than opposed to a 2 weeks Level 3 certificate?

Make sure you ask the training provider what is the difference... ask, what will I actually gain in skills.

I had someone come to see me asking for work back in February after he obtained a Level 4 Certificate (won't name TP). What he did not know was totally unacceptable - I could not believe it! He must have spent all his time on the course asleep or the trainers never turned up!

People will employ you on your skills, experience and how you perform on the ground.

Another question to ask yourself, 'Why hasn't someone created a Level 4 in Close Protection?' Surely anyone with one of those certificates has got to be above the rest? Or would it just be a sales gimmick to lure the unsuspecting?

Peter
Click to expand...


Pete,

I know you posted this a while ago but I have just read it. The reason why no TP has created a level 4 is because the SIA stipulate lower - a fact that surveillance courses are simply not affected by.

The commercialalities of CP and training providers are detrimental to the end result. Profit margins, competition, laziness and basically, a lack of knowledge in most of the CP TP's out there. They all sing from the same old song sheet churning out dross.

Level 4 CP?

Close Protection demands that a Level 5 at least be developed - if there's such a thing?

At present, I certainly wouldn't deem the SIA cse Level 3 but Level 1.



Rich H
 
Rich,

Agreed...

My point exactly when I say it is a sales gimmick for a Level 4 certificate in surveillance be taught to total novices in the same time frame as a Level 3 Certificate (2 weeks). How can one be 'better' more 'experienced', more 'practised', thus better 'qualified' in the same time frame?

I fully understand that the SIA set a Level 3 as a minimum standard for CPO's to get a 'ticket'. I also understand that some just want the ticket at the cheapest and quickest option possible, regardless of the quality of the course.

In this vein, I have sympathy for the 'good' and conscientious CP training providers that run a longer and more expensive courses, as they attempt to give as much as they can by way of skills training and are not just there for handing out certificates.

Someone sooner or later in the CP training world will shortly run a Level 4 course. They will lure unsuspecting students with money to burn (mainly from the MOD carrying out resettlement or ELCAS). The duped students will be under the impression that they are better than anyone else with a CP Level 3 qual' as they wave their Level 4 certificate in the air. Only until after their course will they find out the reality of the CP world..

..That finished with a nice little pun for the forum....:D

Peter @ ISS
 
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Let's not forget there are two elements when talking about these qualifications.

Firstly, there's the level. This always gets covered in detail in these discussions, and generally level 3 is aimed at those carrying out the duties of whatever subject we are talking about to a good standard (i.e. close protection, or surveillance say). Level 4 is aimed at those supervising those trained to level 3 standard, and this is where the confusion starts.

What doesn't get discussed, and is probably more relevant, is the word that comes after the level. Generally, and probably because CP have this due to the SIA licence, it's "certificate", and this comes with a set number of hours worth of learning. The same can be said for the majority of surveillance courses out there.

If someone wants to learn more about their chosen subject it could be possible to increase the content of a level 3, without it going to a supervisory level 4, and then perhaps it could become a "diploma" with a higher number of learning hours.

Obviously it comes down to perception, and sales gimmicks, as spoken about previously. I think for a diploma you are looking at a disproportionate amount of increased learning hours over a certificate for TPs to find relevant content and justify running such a course. (Otherwise I think Pete would have devised one long ago!)

We all agree that the SIA standard isn't high enough (ok, I'm not CP trained, but the wife is, so I've got an idea from her, and from what's said on here). I suppose the best thing to do to increase your knowledge and education is to do as many courses that your wallet and time allow. That's certainly is the case with me and the missus. People seemed to get too bogged down with the level 3-4 thing. But that's just my humble opinion.

Andy
 
HI to all,

Has anyone done BTEC Level 4 (Professional Award) in Hostile Environment Close Protection Operations ? Any impressions ?

Thanks
 
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