Door Picker, manager, Assistant Manager, organiser, host, promoter,
I'm sure there are many other titles that make a mockery of the SIA safeguards, which are ajoke themselves, judging by all the overturned and successful minded to refuse challenges.
Bulger killer gets sia licence!!!!
- Thread starter Jonno
- Start date
Door Picker, manager, Assistant Manager, organiser, host, promoter,
I'm sure there are many other titles that make a mockery of the SIA safeguards, which are ajoke themselves, judging by all the overturned and successful minded to refuse challenges.
Read this thread with interest.
Those "professional DS" who say they would give a good kicking to this guy are just proving they should not be in the job.Sort yourselves out.
This guy on release was gave a new ID, all history wiped out and a checkable clear 10 years given.
He then is CRB clear, it would have been the Ministry of Justice that ensured this. STOP slagging the SIA, legally they have done nothing wrong. If you voted labour then you facilitated the legal moves (MoJ).
"Hello my name is John Smith i want to be a DS, my CRB will show me as Venables the child killer, dont worry about it".That could never have happened. W"hat may be an idea is to restrict his case, ie if he ( or similar people) apply for a job they need to be secretly cleared/refused, DV in a sort of way.
Rehabilitation is not scientific, it varies from one person to another, just because a good talking to or a clip of the ear works for you does not mean it would work for someone else.
What happened has happened ( only a change of legislation will stop it happening again) it is how the legal system deals now that is the issue.
By the way if you are seriously DS and SIA cleared and hold the view that you would give this guy a bit of treatment, will you put that on your form when your license is up for renewal?....Thought not!!
Those "professional DS" who say they would give a good kicking to this guy are just proving they should not be in the job.Sort yourselves out.
This guy on release was gave a new ID, all history wiped out and a checkable clear 10 years given.
He then is CRB clear, it would have been the Ministry of Justice that ensured this. STOP slagging the SIA, legally they have done nothing wrong. If you voted labour then you facilitated the legal moves (MoJ).
"Hello my name is John Smith i want to be a DS, my CRB will show me as Venables the child killer, dont worry about it".That could never have happened. W"hat may be an idea is to restrict his case, ie if he ( or similar people) apply for a job they need to be secretly cleared/refused, DV in a sort of way.
Rehabilitation is not scientific, it varies from one person to another, just because a good talking to or a clip of the ear works for you does not mean it would work for someone else.
What happened has happened ( only a change of legislation will stop it happening again) it is how the legal system deals now that is the issue.
By the way if you are seriously DS and SIA cleared and hold the view that you would give this guy a bit of treatment, will you put that on your form when your license is up for renewal?....Thought not!!
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This is why I don't agree with them being given new identities. I had to argue like mad to get my SIA licence back when they refused my renewal for a caution for affray (an incident that in hindsight I should have never accepted a caution for because i wasn't at fault) yet it caused me loads of grief and the worry of maybe having to find a new career. Yet this f#cker gets a new identity, after what he did to help him start afresh and low and behold, he ends up back in prison!!! Great job!
Read this thread with interest.
Those "professional DS" who say
By the way if you are seriously DS and SIA cleared and hold the view that you would give this guy a bit of treatment, will you put that on your form when your license is up for renewal?....Thought not!!
Read your own statement; hold the view
'that you would give this guy a bit of treatment'
They hold a view,
they talk aout it, because they are enraged,
they threaten it.
But they won't do it, and most certainly not to a child.
WHY ?
Because they are decent human beings who are enraged, who fear for the protection of their children and families.
They are law abiding people who want to see their way of life and justice upheld.
Instead they have to run the gauntlet of people, liberal, theorising, do gooding ignorants, making excuses for the criminally insane, the socially decrepit rejects.
They murdered a child, not by accident, but on purpose, they planned it and in a protracted, unbelieveably cruel way.
So please don't harrang and berate the decent law abiding entrants on this thread with shame, they are rightfully outraged.
The people who managed this psycopaths release and continued liberty are to blame, be it probation, SS, prison service, SIA, governement,
it is against the wishes of the majority of people.
He was known to use drugs, thats against the law, so back inside, he revealed his identity on numerous occassions, so where is the secrecy.
Protect me, protect us,
Liberal second chance advocates should hang their head in shame, You were wrong, he hasn't learned and you put us in danger.
YOU and all those psycho babble well wishers should weep and apologise, NOt call into doubt, and try and shame the average Joe for 'THINKING' like a man, wishing to protect his own and his society.
Ceryndrion
Full Registered User
I'm pretty sure that I read somewhere, that the original plan of those two "little scamps" was to lead off any child they could, and push him/her out into a busy street. Which would have left at least one law-abiding citizen, with the knowledge that, through no fault of their own, they had been the tool in the games of those two "little scamps".
Whose idea was it to lure a child? In custody, Robert claimed Jon said, “Let’s get a kid, I haven’t hit one for ages.†But Jon blamed Robert. “Let’s get this kid lost,†he quoted Robert as saying, “let’s get him lost outside so when he goes into the road he’ll get knocked over.â€
The Victorian concept of “doli incapax†was established to protect innocent (and ignorant) children from corporal punishment. “Doli incapax†meant that children were incapable of wrongdoing because they cannot grasp the consequences of their actions. To this point, Jon and Robert’s teachers testified. Psychiatrists took the stand, believing both defendants knew the severity of their crime. The court then played the recorded police interviews, which also revealed their understanding of the charges.
Ultimately, what happened back then should not matter with regard to the current issues, I think that anyone in their right mind, would want to take a swing at him if they knew who he was. Just as many people would have liked to get Fred West, or Harold Shipman, into a corner. It is a natural instinct in the face of such villany, to want to crack the skulls of those responsible. rational thought doesn't come into it. Most of us here are reasonable people, we'd not normally raise a fist in anger, but there are times, when you just don't wish to hold back, times when you want to say "This makes me angry", and to be honest, this is one of those times.
From what I have read in various news reports, it is not just that he was apparantly allowed to work in an industry that is supposed to be working to make certain that people like him, are NOT allowed to work in the industry (and we all know about the hoop jumping involved there), but also that his recall to prison, has been based around allegations of sexual misconduct (potentially involving children) and for breach of the terms of his license, in that he has, on a number of occassions, returned to the liverpool area.
The way I see it, the primary fault here, seems to be with the probation services, they should have known what he was doing, where he was going, and most importantly for us, who he was working for.
Amazes me, that in this day and age, government agencies, the ministry of justice etc, still fit well with the old saying "the left hand doesnt know, what the right hand is doing".
Whose idea was it to lure a child? In custody, Robert claimed Jon said, “Let’s get a kid, I haven’t hit one for ages.†But Jon blamed Robert. “Let’s get this kid lost,†he quoted Robert as saying, “let’s get him lost outside so when he goes into the road he’ll get knocked over.â€
The Victorian concept of “doli incapax†was established to protect innocent (and ignorant) children from corporal punishment. “Doli incapax†meant that children were incapable of wrongdoing because they cannot grasp the consequences of their actions. To this point, Jon and Robert’s teachers testified. Psychiatrists took the stand, believing both defendants knew the severity of their crime. The court then played the recorded police interviews, which also revealed their understanding of the charges.
Ultimately, what happened back then should not matter with regard to the current issues, I think that anyone in their right mind, would want to take a swing at him if they knew who he was. Just as many people would have liked to get Fred West, or Harold Shipman, into a corner. It is a natural instinct in the face of such villany, to want to crack the skulls of those responsible. rational thought doesn't come into it. Most of us here are reasonable people, we'd not normally raise a fist in anger, but there are times, when you just don't wish to hold back, times when you want to say "This makes me angry", and to be honest, this is one of those times.
From what I have read in various news reports, it is not just that he was apparantly allowed to work in an industry that is supposed to be working to make certain that people like him, are NOT allowed to work in the industry (and we all know about the hoop jumping involved there), but also that his recall to prison, has been based around allegations of sexual misconduct (potentially involving children) and for breach of the terms of his license, in that he has, on a number of occassions, returned to the liverpool area.
The way I see it, the primary fault here, seems to be with the probation services, they should have known what he was doing, where he was going, and most importantly for us, who he was working for.
Amazes me, that in this day and age, government agencies, the ministry of justice etc, still fit well with the old saying "the left hand doesnt know, what the right hand is doing".
They were kids, 10 years old, evil and sadistic as they come but to me that shows an illness not lack of respect or being badly raised necessarily. I think they have been punished and they have been deemed fit to re-enter society by people more qualified to make that call than us, we can either have faith in the system and hope and prey they are very different people as adults then they were as kids.
On the industry and being allowed to work in security, no sorry never, not because they are incapable but because if anyone does find out who he is/was the hassle it could cause etc.
If he has a DS badge what is to stop him being granted CP if he wants it??? That would be sooooooo very very wrong and that would make a complete mockery of the security industry in this country! (if thats not already the case)
On a less objective note, i hope one day he suffers the way that poor lads parents suffered and dies a very slow and painful death! But thats just me!
On the industry and being allowed to work in security, no sorry never, not because they are incapable but because if anyone does find out who he is/was the hassle it could cause etc.
If he has a DS badge what is to stop him being granted CP if he wants it??? That would be sooooooo very very wrong and that would make a complete mockery of the security industry in this country! (if thats not already the case)
On a less objective note, i hope one day he suffers the way that poor lads parents suffered and dies a very slow and painful death! But thats just me!
Horizon, you are the type of person who, no doubt would have been an apologist for the likes of Adolf Eichmann, Joseph Mengele or Joseph Stalin.... If only they had been given the same chances as everyone else...Read this thread with interest.
Those "professional DS" who say they would give a good kicking to this guy are just proving they should not be in the job.Sort yourselves out.
This guy on release was gave a new ID, all history wiped out and a checkable clear 10 years given.
He then is CRB clear, it would have been the Ministry of Justice that ensured this. STOP slagging the SIA, legally they have done nothing wrong. If you voted labour then you facilitated the legal moves (MoJ).
"Hello my name is John Smith i want to be a DS, my CRB will show me as Venables the child killer, dont worry about it".That could never have happened. W"hat may be an idea is to restrict his case, ie if he ( or similar people) apply for a job they need to be secretly cleared/refused, DV in a sort of way.
Rehabilitation is not scientific, it varies from one person to another, just because a good talking to or a clip of the ear works for you does not mean it would work for someone else.
What happened has happened ( only a change of legislation will stop it happening again) it is how the legal system deals now that is the issue.
By the way if you are seriously DS and SIA cleared and hold the view that you would give this guy a bit of treatment, will you put that on your form when your license is up for renewal?....Thought not!!
Real evil exists, do you not recognise that? No amount of rationalising will change that.
Dont make unqualified judgements.
I agree real evil exists, however the law is the law. The UK has one of the best legal systems in the world. No doubt you would subscribe to the " lock them up and throw away the key scenario". 7% only 7% of murderers re offend, FACT.
What needs to be done now is a revaluation and make sure it cannot happen again.
Two points hear is that he was able to get a clear CRB, with the aid of the govt, WITHOUT anyone flagging up the who this person was. That is a real problem and community harm..
He also was released when probably not ready( I say probably as I am not a clinical/criminal psychologist, just an ex squaddie who works in law enforcement). A new system of valuation may be required, however of individuals committing similar offences, have they reoffended? Thomson hasnt.
I do not subscribe to vigilante individuals who are meant to protect. What is in the news is only hearsay at the moment. It makes me laugh and angry that individuals only listen to the media, hold fire and wait for the facts.
I have seen real evil, and worked in an area where far worse happened, no media attention, naive people think that the Bulger case was a one off, IT WAS NOT a similar case saw an individual released and go on to do the similar at 19 yrs of age.
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Ceryndrion
Full Registered User
When it comes to Thompson, I am prepared to let bygones be bygones, so far as I know he is living a peaceful life, and within the rules of his license, which is fine, he is apparantly not a danger to society.
However, in the case of Venables, it is becoming obvious that he hasn't changed at all, yes the reports are all vague and circumstantial at best, but it does seem to me, that in this case, once a toe-rag, always a little snot.
As you said Horizon, the real fault is with the system that allowed him to work in an industry where his past didn't get flagged up, would the same have happened if he had applied for a job in a school? that is where my concern comes to light, this is a high profile incident, how many more are going unchecked?
Yes people are jumping to conclusions based on prior knowledge about this individual's past, much of that comes from the fact that a vast majority of people, believe that the sentance was not fitting of the crime. And venting frustration, yeah, I'd like to pop him one, doesn't mean that I would, but I certainly would like to think that I would, and that makes me feel better. I dont want people like him, working the doors of my clubs, or anything else like that.
The best that can come from this, would be a tightening of the background checks being done. But even then, it sounds as though somewhere, someone found a loophole for him.
However, in the case of Venables, it is becoming obvious that he hasn't changed at all, yes the reports are all vague and circumstantial at best, but it does seem to me, that in this case, once a toe-rag, always a little snot.
As you said Horizon, the real fault is with the system that allowed him to work in an industry where his past didn't get flagged up, would the same have happened if he had applied for a job in a school? that is where my concern comes to light, this is a high profile incident, how many more are going unchecked?
Yes people are jumping to conclusions based on prior knowledge about this individual's past, much of that comes from the fact that a vast majority of people, believe that the sentance was not fitting of the crime. And venting frustration, yeah, I'd like to pop him one, doesn't mean that I would, but I certainly would like to think that I would, and that makes me feel better. I dont want people like him, working the doors of my clubs, or anything else like that.
The best that can come from this, would be a tightening of the background checks being done. But even then, it sounds as though somewhere, someone found a loophole for him.
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Horizon,
There has been a lot of failures, the fail safes were ignored, or so it seems.
Will the overseers of these protocols be held accountable, maybe, maybe not.
A fair trial for whatever he has done is a requirement in law, that's fair.
The papers therefore shouldn't trample all over this, at least not just yet.
There are between 800 -2000 murders a year in the UK depending on if you include the reduced charge of manslaughter.
So 7% of killers who reoffend or murder again is between 56 and 140 people.
That's 140 who will murder. FACT.
or in a 10 year period 1,400 murders that would be prevented in that time by throwing away the key. FACT.
Not enough care was taken to protect the public from Venables and Thompson.
The system and authorities failed, and failed badly.
Now this is a celebrity case, very much under the spotlight.
How slack must the system be on the buried cases, the cases far from peoples minds.
By Venables being finally caught, after such rumoured misdemeanours, we must question, strongly and with great attention the lack of control, and accountability displayed by those charged with safeguarding us from a known killer, who by stats alone stood a 10% chance of killing again. FACT.
Keep in mind that there are a lot of things worse than death to be endured.
Going by stats, it's said that 67% of the current prison population will reoffend,
not murder, but maybe rape, torture, kidnap, arson etc.
The law now has to take it's course, but it must be fully and openly accountable.
The systems not working, it must be changed.
Public outrage, must stand for something.
When mothers, fathers and generally rational, law abiding citizens cry out for retribution, and capital punishment at their own hands.
Then it must be obvious to all that the system has failed them in it's balance of justice.
Professional DS, professional security operators should be just that,
but we are only human after all.
But as with generalisations, Stats aren't really the way to go.
There has been a lot of failures, the fail safes were ignored, or so it seems.
Will the overseers of these protocols be held accountable, maybe, maybe not.
A fair trial for whatever he has done is a requirement in law, that's fair.
The papers therefore shouldn't trample all over this, at least not just yet.
There are between 800 -2000 murders a year in the UK depending on if you include the reduced charge of manslaughter.
So 7% of killers who reoffend or murder again is between 56 and 140 people.
That's 140 who will murder. FACT.
or in a 10 year period 1,400 murders that would be prevented in that time by throwing away the key. FACT.
Not enough care was taken to protect the public from Venables and Thompson.
The system and authorities failed, and failed badly.
Now this is a celebrity case, very much under the spotlight.
How slack must the system be on the buried cases, the cases far from peoples minds.
By Venables being finally caught, after such rumoured misdemeanours, we must question, strongly and with great attention the lack of control, and accountability displayed by those charged with safeguarding us from a known killer, who by stats alone stood a 10% chance of killing again. FACT.
Keep in mind that there are a lot of things worse than death to be endured.
Going by stats, it's said that 67% of the current prison population will reoffend,
not murder, but maybe rape, torture, kidnap, arson etc.
The law now has to take it's course, but it must be fully and openly accountable.
The systems not working, it must be changed.
Public outrage, must stand for something.
When mothers, fathers and generally rational, law abiding citizens cry out for retribution, and capital punishment at their own hands.
Then it must be obvious to all that the system has failed them in it's balance of justice.
Professional DS, professional security operators should be just that,
but we are only human after all.
But as with generalisations, Stats aren't really the way to go.
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I hope the other guy leads a normal life now, not for his benefit, but so that no one else goes through the same as Jamie and his parents went through and are still going through. The system is to blame, but will things get learnt, no, at least not to stop it happening again, history/recent history proves that.
The system is based on targets/stats, and they are just another, we can all keep discussing who is to blame, and lets face it we will, why, because we are the only fckers who give a flying fck and want to see change.
The system is based on targets/stats, and they are just another, we can all keep discussing who is to blame, and lets face it we will, why, because we are the only fckers who give a flying fck and want to see change.
having read this thread and have felt that my blood is about to boil i have decided like knasher to have a final say from my point..
i like many oj and annie spring to mind but plenty more i'm sure see this for for what it actually is a travisty.
i hope he is locked away indefinetly where he belongs.
away from me and other law abiding folks i try very hard not to lose my temper or self control but i think this would be one of the times..
given the chance
i like many oj and annie spring to mind but plenty more i'm sure see this for for what it actually is a travisty.
i hope he is locked away indefinetly where he belongs.
away from me and other law abiding folks i try very hard not to lose my temper or self control but i think this would be one of the times..
given the chance
Isn't that the whole point of a new identity from the goverment?? What legend would be safe if it couldn't stand up to SIA scrutiny.
Of course he's an evil little shite.....but after the SIA granted those i/i's their badges is it that much of a shock.
What has the SIA really done for our arm of the industry other than profit for training providers. Have we had any benefit.??
Of course he's an evil little shite.....but after the SIA granted those i/i's their badges is it that much of a shock.
What has the SIA really done for our arm of the industry other than profit for training providers. Have we had any benefit.??
It all boils down to the simple belief in rehabilitation.
Do we imprison people to solely punish them.
In a civilised society, this is not justifiable, we must also rehabilitate, show them the error of their ways, give them the social care and education, that MUST be lacking from their upbringing, and circumstances.
The concept of pure evil is dismissed in favour of the christian belief that all men can be redeemed, saved and ultimately forgiven.
Constant reoffending must indicate to us that there is something amiss with this model of rehabilitation, but still we soldier on, and we suffer while they fiddle with this idea of social engineering.
Now in it's defence as regards Murder.
It is a FACt (there's that word again)
That the states with the highest rates of murder are the states that have retained the death penalty as a punishment.
I know, I know, I don't get it either.
What has become evident to many of us is that the scales of justice seem to be too heavily weighted in favour of the criminals rites, and not our defence.
It suprises me, with all the opinions of inadequate systems to defend us and our rites,
that vigilantyism (is there such a word) is not more evident and regular an occurence, Harry Brown style.
Do we imprison people to solely punish them.
In a civilised society, this is not justifiable, we must also rehabilitate, show them the error of their ways, give them the social care and education, that MUST be lacking from their upbringing, and circumstances.
The concept of pure evil is dismissed in favour of the christian belief that all men can be redeemed, saved and ultimately forgiven.
Constant reoffending must indicate to us that there is something amiss with this model of rehabilitation, but still we soldier on, and we suffer while they fiddle with this idea of social engineering.
Now in it's defence as regards Murder.
It is a FACt (there's that word again)
That the states with the highest rates of murder are the states that have retained the death penalty as a punishment.
I know, I know, I don't get it either.
What has become evident to many of us is that the scales of justice seem to be too heavily weighted in favour of the criminals rites, and not our defence.
It suprises me, with all the opinions of inadequate systems to defend us and our rites,
that vigilantyism (is there such a word) is not more evident and regular an occurence, Harry Brown style.
My last input to this thread as it is really gripping my shit!!!
ceryndrion: 'When it comes to Thompson, I am prepared to let bygones be bygones, so far as I know he is living a peaceful life.........................
sorry mate my answer to that is not suitable to be posted on a family forum!!!
If it was your three year old son would you still say that???
Whether we live in the most just and fair society in the world, what those two little b*stards did should never be forgiven or what they did forgotten.
Jack do the decent thing you spineless N0 1 C*nt and speak to the woman:
[url]http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-news/local-news/2010/03/08/james-bulger-s-mother-denise-fergus-tells-of-sleepless-nights-on-this-morning-100252-25986525/[/URL]
ceryndrion: 'When it comes to Thompson, I am prepared to let bygones be bygones, so far as I know he is living a peaceful life.........................
sorry mate my answer to that is not suitable to be posted on a family forum!!!
If it was your three year old son would you still say that???
Whether we live in the most just and fair society in the world, what those two little b*stards did should never be forgiven or what they did forgotten.
Jack do the decent thing you spineless N0 1 C*nt and speak to the woman:
[url]http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-news/local-news/2010/03/08/james-bulger-s-mother-denise-fergus-tells-of-sleepless-nights-on-this-morning-100252-25986525/[/URL]
Ceryndrion
Full Registered User
Perhaps what I said could be taken out of context, but the simple fact of the matter is, regarding Thompson, he has served his time as sentanced, he has been released on life license, and to date, has shown no signs of reoffending or any breaches in the terms of his license. In fact, reading through the reports by one of his former social workers, he seems like he's put it all behind him, is well aware of what would happen if he was found out, and has no plans to let that happen.
So long as he stays clear of trouble, I have no problem with him, yes the crime was dire and vicious, but at the same time I cannot condemn him simply for past crimes.
So long as he stays clear of trouble, I have no problem with him, yes the crime was dire and vicious, but at the same time I cannot condemn him simply for past crimes.
engliscman
Full Registered User
.....only in this country!
G
Gabi
Guest
If those boys had only been a few months younger, they would never have entered the Justice system at all.
Looking back at my post, how can they have a normal life after what they did, they are dangerous and are not safe to be let out, whos head is it on when they snap and do something, with nothing to lose, no ones i bet. How can and why do people go on about their rights!? WTF