"It's a civic matter"

M

MikeDerby

Full Registered User
We had somebody who came into our retail store, but before he did, he hid a large knife in a bush outside the store

He has done this on 3 occasions and has always left the knives there, so we retrieved them and the police came to collect them (eventually)

We have clear CCTV of this person putting these knives in various places, but the police say they can not do anything unless they catch him with a knife in his possession

We want to ban him from the store but approaching him will most definitely lead to it kicking off and somebody getting hurt

The police were contacted by a store manager and they said there is nothing they can do, it's a civil matter.

So what would be the best way to deal with this??

He is not causing any issues inside the store, but we obviously don't want somebody who carries weapons to be coming into the store.
 
I would have thought that a person who is walking round with a knife on three occasions is a matter for the Police.

Perhaps if the knives are retrieved by the store in a manner likely to preserve any fingerprints, then when the Police collect the knife, it could be suggested to them that the knife has been preserved and their CSI may be able to lift some prints.
 
I would have thought that if you have CCTV of him depositing the knife that should be enough evidence of possession.

Banning him is a civil matter, if you have his name you could probably find out who his solicitor is by looking at past court cases in the newspaper then give a banning notice to his solicitor. That means it is then in writing but then it would just be trespass if he comes in which is still a civil matter unless you can show he intends to steal or harm someone.

Are you actually a security guard at this shop? If so, and you are saying you won't confront anyone that may kick off then you need to rethink your career.
 
conwy said:
I would have thought that a person who is walking round with a knife on three occasions is a matter for the Police.

Perhaps if the knives are retrieved by the store in a manner likely to preserve any fingerprints, then when the Police collect the knife, it could be suggested to them that the knife has been preserved and their CSI may be able to lift some prints.
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Fingerprints on an item only prove that, at some point, that person touched it. It doesn't prove when it happened or where it happened.
 
SCT said:
Fingerprints on an item only prove that, at some point, that person touched it. It doesn't prove when it happened or where it happened.
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I think what he is suggesting is that if the police don't actually know the identity of the person then they could find it from fingerprints. I was assuming that the person would be known to the police as he sounds like the sort of person who is a regular nuisance, but that isn't necessarily the case.
Can I just ask MikeDerby, what sort of knife, are we talking folding under 3inches or something that is illegal to carry without good reason?
 
littlewoman said:
I would have thought that if you have CCTV of him depositing the knife that should be enough evidence of possession.

Banning him is a civil matter, if you have his name you could probably find out who his solicitor is by looking at past court cases in the newspaper then give a banning notice to his solicitor. That means it is then in writing but then it would just be trespass if he comes in which is still a civil matter unless you can show he intends to steal or harm someone.

Are you actually a security guard at this shop? If so, and you are saying you won't confront anyone that may kick off then you need to rethink your career.
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This guy has asked for advice, and you comment like this?

The poster has clearly stated that he will not approach this individual as he may be armed and quite rightly so. We have a police force that are trained and equipped to deal with this type of situation.

Your serious lack of judgment in this issue makes me think you should rethink your career path.



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Mike

It is a Police matter what level have you taken it to?

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larpy said:
This guy has asked for advice, and you comment like this?

The poster has clearly stated that he will not approach this individual as he may be armed and quite rightly so. We have a police force that are trained and equipped to deal with this type of situation.

Your serious lack of judgment in this issue makes me think you should rethink your career path.



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Actually, he clearly said he got rid of the knife before coming into the shop. Otherwise its a different matter.
I am merely asking if he is unprepared to challenge anyone coming into the shop that may cause trouble. This is surely part of the job of being security. If the person was banned it would still be up to security to stop him if he did try to come in.
I have given other advice, I'm just unsure what he thinks banning someone would achieve if he isn't then prepared to stop him.

Rhea - you seem to not understand the difference between asking a question and making a statement. I was asking him to clarify what he seemed to be hinting at when he says "We want to ban him from the store but approaching him will most definitely lead to it kicking off and somebody getting hurt".
 
littlewoman said:
Rhea - you seem to not understand the difference between asking a question and making a statement. I was asking him to clarify what he seemed to be hinting at when he says "We want to ban him from the store but approaching him will most definitely lead to it kicking off and somebody getting hurt".
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I never got that "hint" and only thought that the OP was stating nothing other that what would be the likely outcome of a confrontation.......and I always thought a question ends in a "?" doesn't it?

littlewoman said:
If so, and you are saying you won't confront anyone that may kick off then you need to rethink your career
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Seems like a statement to me.
 
LW, someone has come onto the forum and has made a post seeking advice from 'Professionals' as obviously he has not got any were with the authorities.

The poster has quite rightly not challenged or will challenge this individual as obviously he is known for carrying, yes he may have tossed the knife prior to entering the premises - but what is to say that he was not carrying further weapons? tossing the knife may be a decoy, a profile of a weapon carrier will indicate that a secondary usually secreted weapon will also be carried.

The matter of carrying the knife is for the police, the banning will be civil. However what has to be examined is, is this individual actually intending to do some harm to an individual or individuals in these premises? or is he a disgruntled ex employee, has he been arrested for shoplifting? Why is he tossing the knife prior to entering - does he lose his nerve? Further questions to ask does the poster's employee provide PPE for such occasions as this? is training received sufficient?

Your very quick to 'knee jerk' react - establish facts first - make an informed decision - then advise only if qualified to do so.
 
rhea said:
I never got that "hint" and only thought that the OP was stating nothing other that what would be the likely outcome of a confrontation.......and I always thought a question ends in a "?" doesn't it?


Seems like a statement to me.
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Sorry, seeing the whole bit quoted again, I would have been more correct to call it an "If, then" (or conditional) statement as used in computer programming but just as valid in English. The "if" at the beginning means that only if the next condition is satisfied does the next bit (the advice) apply. Hence IF he was saying he wouldn't confront anyone who might kick off THEN he might like to rethink his career. If that is not what he is saying, then he has no need to rethink his career, but he might like to clarify what he is prepared to do. Because there's no point banning him unless he is prepared to deal with him if he wants to come in.
 
I would want to ban the scrote. If he is stashing the knife before entering he is obviously worried about being searched in store so he is probably a shoplifter. If you are worried he is going to kick off when stopped and banned from the store can you not get some back up, local Security maybe but ideally the Police. Do you use the Town Watch radio system to warn each other that he is in the area and possibly armed? I`m surprised the Police can`t do anything, why not let him in the store then monitor him on the CCTV retrieving the knife when he leaves, inform Town Watch (if used) so they can follow him on CCTV calling the Police with a description and they will arrest him in possession, hopefully at the business end of a glock!
 
Mike,

I know you said, "Retail" but if the premises hold a License for the sale of alcohol....

You can simply refuse admission and the trespass scenario comes into play with immediate effect without any civil letters needing to be issued

Regards

premier


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Premier. It's been a long time since I worked in Retail, can you not just ban someone from entering the store, private property, and trespass comes into play if they try to enter in future regardless of the alcohol licence?
 
Sabre,

Yes pal you can!
But the license to sell alcohol makes it more likely for the police to help as it is not purely a civil matter!

Being as the police have not helped thus far.

Regards

premier


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Just thought I'd add this; it costs Police approx. £1,000 to have a fingerprint analysed (cost of SOCO call-out, recovery to lab, lab processing & analysis, run-time on a computer to check the database, visual double-check of returned result by a fingerprint expert, storage of knife, etc). Forces are cash-strapped, and don't analyse EVERY fingerprint and piece of DNA/other trace. They just analyse the ones they think have the best evidential value to them.

The Police should do something, he's walking in a public place with a concealed weapon. Yes, they need to ideally catch him with it, but they should still be able to caution him if they don't, based on CCTV Footage

You should consider a stab vest, if you don't already. Maybe put some distance between yourself and himself in store (behind a counter/chair, a few feet away, baskets/trolley between you, etc)


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Maybe the man is carrying a knife for personal protection for whatever reason and him stashing it in the bushes is out of respect for the shop owner. Or, the fact that he doesn't want anyone to assume he's going to rob the place or go on a killing spree if discovered with it in the store. Maybe he uses it at work and forgot to leave it there. Most times a man with a knife is just a man with a knife and not a mass murderer.

Have you asked him why he stashes knives in your bushes? I can't imagine he'll stab you in the heart for asking a simple question. No need for a stab vest and using trolleys to thwart an imagined attack.

Is the man a decent sort? Why so freaked out over this? Next time he comes in tell him you'd appreciate it if he stashed his knives elsewhere.
 
Howardk said:
Maybe the man is carrying a knife for personal protection for whatever reason..QUOTE]

Totally illegal here in the UK Howie, unless you are a workman who can prove you are on your way to/from work and that work involves using a knife ie stanley/craft then you will be in big trouble.

As a rule here if someone carries a knife they are upto no good and we plan for the worse.
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