Mark Duggan Killed lawfully

DisceAutDiscede said:
Carl..I'm a tad surprised to hear this sort of thing from you...I was in the Met, but I came from Dorset originally, but since 'London' is not in a different country I guess it was OK for me to work there. Never in all the years I served did I see or hear anything like Police discriminating against people who were actual Londoners. Having read the whole of this thread, do you wonder why Police may seem a little hostile at times when you have people like 'Gareth' calling them 'Filth'. Believe you me, it's a pretty thankless task for uniform officers working the streets. As always hindsight is a wonderful thing, but until you've lived it may I suggest that you 'Gareth' take a little advice - 'If you kept quiet, nobody would realise just what a moron you are!
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Interesting comments D-A-D, I'll refer to you as Dad if I may? sorry if the facts surprise you mate and quite frankly, I have been known to express a lot worse... so have many Police force TFU's I have worked with outside the MET... Just out of interest and I trust that you do not mind me asking? which division in London did you work..? [BTW both you and I know that you are neither answerable or accountable to me, just interested] of course where I lived was known as Whisky Division and guess what? my Great Grandfather was a copper in that Div... but that makes absolutely no difference whatsoever to my experiences as a youngen on the streets of London.

I understand the Police do a difficult job, we all do, I understand that we are all human and that at sometime we all make mistakes and I am a believer in, and quite rightly so, in the saying: "Don't judge my journey till you have walked my path" but if you are telling me that it is legitimate for the Police to dish out a little violence here and there due to their difficulties? Well..! what can I say! next you'll be telling me that it is OK for Police officers to lie in order to stitch up a politician!!!!

BBC News - 'Plebgate' affair: Met PC admits misconduct

You need to read a post of mine mate regarding a Gurkha team leader whereby, the Ex-Pat team demonstrated restraint in a very threatening and difficult situation... You'll excuse me for pointing out to you that it is not only Police Officers who face some very demanding, eratic and dangerous confrontations!

I am enjoying our discussion.

ATB... and BTW? Kudos on your career and the right and proper service that you afforded to Londoners... I'll leave it there...

CD
 
Customloads said:
And if I read the brief to the Jury correctly, they were told that the officer had only to believe it was possible for the man to be armed.

The guy had form for illegally possessing and the strong indication that he had used such to commit (or at the very least be involved in) capital murder. On coming upon the Police, regardless of what his feelings about the officers on the day was, common sense would demand that he show no hint of aggression or non-compliance.

As has been said already many times, if an armed Police Officer tells you to do something you do it. No ifs, no buts.
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It might also be noted that he took the gun out of the box and out of the taxi, rather than conceal it in taxi and claim he knew nothing about it. What could be easier than shoving the box under the front seat and claiming you knew nothing about it. I suspect he thought he could shoot his way out of it until he realised he was facing a number of armed officers.
 
littlewoman.
it might have been more difficult to explain the box away as I would imagine it was covered in his prints.
his box, his contents.
throwing a sock covered gun away was a better option to his mind at that dire instant.
His life was crumbling around him. so get the incriminating evidence as far away as possible.
and as with most of his previous life choices, he chose wrong, badly wrong.
he gambled and lost. he gambled with peoples lives daily probably, life was a gamble to him and others like him.
which sort of negates the theory that the police planted the gun.
why not plant it in the box or in the car, or even on the body.
people are too busy with their grassy knoll minds to excuse worthless trash.
 
There are two 'publics' to my mind.
The law abiding public and
the outlaws, criminals, those who choose to live outside the law,
yet still expect it to protect them.
an unreasonable expectation to my mind.
 
davidd said:
Tottenham this afternoon(11th) vigil for Duggan and a football match.... plenty of overtime for some.
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Now if I wanted a peaceful vigil I wouldn't plan one, one hour before a major football match, less than a mile down a main road from the ground. Even if it was a vigil against a war in some foreign land, thousands of football fans passing by is not likely to be conducive to a peaceful vigil. So either they didn't consider it or they know the implications, lots of young men in the area, lots of potential for a kick-off (I don't mean the football variety) and the subsequent allegations that the police provoked trouble by having large numbers of police in the area.

They could have had it at 1pm and avoided this, or the morning, or any time on Sunday when fewer people would be working and more able to attend.
 
it could back fire badly for the Duggan family.
i honestly think they are stupid enough to be of the mind, that the public young and old are on their side.
I think they have misjudged the football fans as well.
I fear that the Duggans might just find that the general public are fed up of criminals be excused or pitied.
and in the absence of mark Duggan to berate, the crowd might just turn on those that educated him and made him what he was.
I may be wrong, but we live in hope. that people see past the flagellating self pity of the Duggans.
seeing them for what they are, people who profited and encouraged crime, yet cannot seem to see their major part in its construction or blame.
 
Oddjob said:
it could back fire badly for the Duggan family.
i honestly think they are stupid enough to be of the mind, that the public young and old are on their side.
I think they have misjudged the football fans as well.
I fear that the Duggans might just find that the general public are fed up of criminals be excused or pitied.
and in the absence of mark Duggan to berate, the crowd might just turn on those that educated him and made him what he was.
I may be wrong, but we live in hope. that people see past the flagellating self pity of the Duggans.
seeing them for what they are, people who profited and encouraged crime, yet cannot seem to see their major part in its construction or blame.
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I'd agree to a large extent, their is an sub-class that see the police as the enemy and those in that sub-class seem to think that all the working class fell as they do. I think they underestimate how many people hate them. However, its worth pointing out that Duggan was one of 48 main members of the gang and there were about 100 of them in all. So whilst he may have been one of the leading members, there's still a lot of the gang out there to intimidate people.
 
Photo of Mark Duggan at daughter’s funeral cropped to paint him as a gangster | Pride's Purge

I don't condone his background activities but it seems the press have been misleading us on the famous phot of the guy the cops shot after claiming the proactive rd that prompted his death came from him not an ND by another highly trained copper.
The UK judicial system is a corrupt joke and they don't do things for the public-good but for their own masters.
Don't for one minute think that they're on your side or won't cover-up your death if the police screw up again.
 
It was actually the highly-trained copper that ND'd and shot the other copper in the radio that set the whole event off.
Nothing to do with lizards, alligators or any other reptiles.
They probably would have arrested him if the finger had been kept off the trigger in the 1st place.
I would have thought that is obviously apparent but obviously it isn't.
Silly remarks about how efficient the UK justice system is (when we see miscarriages of justice everyday) piss me off a bit but if you want to defend coppers murdering someone again that's up to you and your mates.
Out.
 
Where are you getting this information that an officer had an ND? As I understand it only one officer fired, he fired two shots both of which hit Duggan, one passed through his arm and hit the other officer. But if there's something from a reliable source that says that more than two shots were fired, then please state that.

It was not the officer getting shot that "set the whole thing off", it was Duggan first getting an illegal firearm and then getting out of the car with it when stopped by the police. If you give yourself a reputation as a hard man who has access to guns and then get hold of a gun and grab it when stopped by the police you have no-one to blame but yourself if you get shot.
 
The IPCC's first statement about Duggan's death, issued four hours after he was pronounced dead, made no reference to shots fired at police.

However, at least one spokesman from the watchdog appears to have misinformed journalists, leading to reports that Duggan was killed by police after "firing first".

The Evening Standard said Duggan had been involved in a "shootout", adding that a "spokesman for the [IPCC] said it appeared the officer was shot first before police returned fire".

The Mirror quoted an IPCC spokesman saying: "We do not know the order the shots were fired. We understand the officer was shot first, then the male."

Mark Duggan death: IPCC says it inadvertently misled media | UK news | theguardian.com

I can almost guarantee that the copper1 was very twitchy and either ND'd ,ricocheted, and hit the copper2 in the radio prompting the shot ( from copper1)to the centre of mass or acted deliberately in the 1st place and put the round that hit C2 down to MD shooting at him.
As the article headline states "The IPCC inadvertently misled the media" who then misled the public.
How far this disinformation has permeated into this event is anyones guess but a white-wash is a cover-up no matter what "they" tell you.
 
gareth said:
The IPCC's first statement about Duggan's death, issued four hours after he was pronounced dead, made no reference to shots fired at police.

However, at least one spokesman from the watchdog appears to have misinformed journalists, leading to reports that Duggan was killed by police after "firing first".

The Evening Standard said Duggan had been involved in a "shootout", adding that a "spokesman for the [IPCC] said it appeared the officer was shot first before police returned fire".

The Mirror quoted an IPCC spokesman saying: "We do not know the order the shots were fired. We understand the officer was shot first, then the male."

Mark Duggan death: IPCC says it inadvertently misled media | UK news | theguardian.com

I can almost guarantee that the copper1 was very twitchy and either ND'd ,ricocheted, and hit the copper2 in the radio prompting the shot ( from copper1)to the centre of mass or acted deliberately in the 1st place and put the round that hit C2 down to MD shooting at him.
As the article headline states "The IPCC inadvertently misled the media" who then misled the public.
How far this disinformation has permeated into this event is anyones guess but a white-wash is a cover-up no matter what "they" tell you.
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Fact Duggan was shot twice.
Do you have any evidence, not speculation made at the time, but actual evidence that there were more than two shots fired.
It seems you're taking things said before the investigation had even started as evidence that it didn't happen how the inquest said it happened once all evidence had been collected and heard.
 
There were 2 shots fired, I didn't question that point :
1) Copper1 opened up 1st.
2) Copper2 was hit with the rd copper1 fired and MD was also hit.
3) Copper1 then followed through with a COM shot.
This is where it gets confusing as the 2nd rd (from C1)was only fired after MD reportedly fired the rd that hit copper2.
MD was unarmed no matter what speculative evidence was provided by the police on if he had a wpn stashed or not.
They were out to cover their arses- pure and simple.
I really can't comprehend how you can advocate having the police cover-up a murder on the UK streets but then again it's becoming more and more common so maybe there's an air of desensitisation with the thinking of the common-man?
This is the UK not the US (yet).
 
This is the biggest load of bullshit I have ever heard so far, where are you getting your info from ????
In the confusion of the aftermath and the IPCC rush to do a media statement they were not in possession of the full facts.
Please note IPCC are not the Police. They are an independent body set up to investigate Police complaints which ever falls under their remit. To tell you how good the IPCC are their office by mistake passed over Police Officers home addresses to a suspected terrorists Lawyer. This is the first one that comes to mind there are many others out there.

As someone who's G2 comes directly from the scene and not rumour control, speculation, expert opinion, info from IPCC, Duggan family or anywhere else the Officers actions at the time were correct with what information they had on the suspect and what he was carrying. Duggan knew he was being followed by Police he said so in a text to a mate. He was carrying a firearm on him so why didn't he go to the floor with his hands out stretched and show himself in the least threatening manner. If an armed Police officer screams at you to show me your hands and you fail to do that and carry out any other action in which the officer (who has information that you are carrying a firearm) deems this to be a serious threat to life then the consequences are inevitable.

All this bullshit about Police planting a gun FFS. He could have lobbed it at the time of getting out the vehicle or at the time of being shot. There is CCTV footage of a shop keeper near to Oldpark RUC station being shot at point blank range by the provos 6-7 shots from a AK and he was still able to have a conversation and shout out. Bit different I know but just as someone is shot it doesn't mean their body falls all placid to the floor.

What hasn't been mentioned is the Officers efforts to give Duggan first aid after he was shot and the strenuous efforts that they did put into which was commented on by the Paramedics who eventually took over.

As for the judicial system being a joke we have one of the open and transparent systems of justice in the world. In the eyes of some people it might not be perfect but it's a dam sight better than a lot of other Countries in the world.

Last word and this is Fact the Officer did not have an ND




gareth said:
It was actually the highly-trained copper that ND'd and shot the other copper in the radio that set the whole event off.
Nothing to do with lizards, alligators or any other reptiles.
They probably would have arrested him if the finger had been kept off the trigger in the 1st place.
I would have thought that is obviously apparent but obviously it isn't.
Silly remarks about how efficient the UK justice system is (when we see miscarriages of justice everyday) piss me off a bit but if you want to defend coppers murdering someone again that's up to you and your mates.
Out.
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Not when a jury of 12 good men and women from our peers who have sat through all the evidence provided by both the defence and prosecution decide he was killed lawfully.

Duggan was killed lawfully not murdered.
 
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