New type of radio - is this a good idea?

radcomms

New Member
Hello all,

I've been toying with an idea for a while and I wanted to see whether you guys think it would sink or swim.

The idea is to take a Motorola-style handheld radio (same look, feel, ruggedness and push button operation) but make it transmit over the mobile phone network instead of the radio waves.

This means you would get almost unlimited range across town (or further), but also saturation coverage inside buildings and built up areas. It would work exactly the same as any normal radio - but with the coverage of a cellphone.

So let's say you are on CP duty; you could have radio comms between all the team including the BGs, cars, residence and even a central control - and it would be encrypted. Or if you do security mobile patrols or keyholding, you could always be in touch with control via radio no matter where you went. If you were on surveillance, you wouldn't need to worry about losing touch with the rest of the team if your target jumps in a car.

Any situation where you need communication over more than half a mile or so. In some ways it's like the Government Airwave service, but open to everyone.

I would sell the radios for around the same price as a digital radio (£350 - £400), plus a monthly subscription that gave unlimited voice communication. There would also be professional audio accessories like the clear tubes, three-wire kits, etc.

The technology is there to build this, but I wanted to see what you think before I spend any more time on this.

Thanks.

John
 
But you'd need to get the mobile phone companies to let you use their transmitters and you would have to dial a number to tell it where its sending the signal. The only reason mobile phones have the coverage they do is because the masts act as a repeater station, receiving the signal, boosting it then sending it back out.
Do you have any experience in radio and electronics design, and if not who would you get to design it? Have you looked at the costs of design, prototyping and production to see if that price is feasible?
 
John,

I would be interested. I'm very close to purchasing several Hytera X1's - X1 - Portable - Hytera Communications Corporation Limited

I'm not entirely sure how you would be able to piggyback the mobile networks with a radio frequency and to be honest - I don't need to know how it works! I just need to know if it does work - reliably, effectively but most importantly - instantly.

The reasons why I have decided on the Hytera X1 is due to the covert profile of the system. They are bluetooth compatible so wireless earpieces can be used. They have an in-built transductor which means no requirement for an inductor loop to be worn. The handset is about the same size as an iPhone so can simply be carried inside an internal suit jacket pocket. Each handset is in the region of £700.

If yours can be designed to include all of the above then you are on to a winner but I would still question any priority given to range over all the aforementioned. For my requirements, the covert profile is more important.


Rich H
 
Thanks to everyone who replied.

The radio would use the mobile network data channel to send/receive the audio. The technology is available today, but you have to run it on a mobile phone - which isn't rugged, has poor battery life and doesn't work with the covert/overt audio accessories of something like a Motorola or Icom.

I think Dolphin Telecom were the last people to run a nationwide radio network in the UK. It was a good product (although the radio was like a brick!) but they went bust because they had to build all the radio transmitters. That was about 10 years ago before mobile phone networks were everywhere.

I guess I'm wondering how many people would be willing to upgrade their existing two-way radio to get better range from a handheld, whether that's just between a few buildings, across town or even across counties. Plus maybe GPS positioning, etc.

Thanks again.


John
 
Not just for range John.

There is much hype in commercial CP, from publications to training course content with regards to 'Ops Rooms' and the old 'net diagram'. This is simply not a factor in CP other than residence security involving a large estate and large team. The reason being, is that this factor had been modelled on a military set up in which simply does not exist on the scale or with the equipment in the commercial world.

Commercial CP, that being non-sandpit, has no requirement for an extended range but a range which the distance from vehicle to foot is dictated.



Rich H
 
This technology that you say is already there - are you just saying mobile phone technology or are you saying there's something that works like a radio in that you push a button to talk and you can talk to all your colleagues on the network, but that it runs through the mobile system?
 
Sounds like an elaborate way to go bankrupt. I'll follow this with interest, and good luck !

I can forsee more than a few issues with frequencies, power, licencing, technology, and most of all, OfCom.

....and prepare to paper your walls with assorted injunctions, court cases and god knows what else.

Seriously, unless you've some massive engineering and R&D behind you, or an investor that has a fat wallet and no common sense, do NOT put money into doing this. You'll get eaten for breakfast.
 
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The tech already exists (first it was Dolphin Tetra) before it became Airwave that the emergency services use (stick it in Google and its all there!)

It can be used as a point to point (one handset to another like a mobile) or it can be used as an open talk unit that is similar to PTT (push to talk) - in the UK it piggy backs a commercial network. A few operators tried the PTT but the handset manufacturers didn't see it the same way and never developed the handsets so it was shelved quite soon after. The main reason for the shelving was the key-up time (the time it takes to push the button, establish the connection and transmit the data) plus it used masses of bandwidth and with smart phones getting ever more overly developed voice type technologies are well down on the list of must haves for both operators and manufacturers.

Any mobile company can now set you up as what is called an MVNO (Mobile Virtual Network Operator) an example of which is Tesco Mobile - so you pay for the wholesale airtime and they administrate the network - you then charge your customers for the use of "your' mobile phone company. The big down side to this is the millions of pounds you need to set it up!

Good luck with your idea.

Walks
 
It already exists. Its called TETRA. Airwave is the implementation in the UK for emergency services. Anyone with recent job experience should know this

Absolutely right, Dolphin used to run a TETRA network, I used it a lot and it was good. However, they went bankrupt due to lack of take up.

You can do the same thing with smartphones on 3g with a PTT app.
 
Thanks for the honest feedback - this is all really good.

Agreed, the Sonim is a great phone but it has a couple of drawbacks for professional two-way radio use:

1 - The controls are much smaller and more fiddly than a two-way radio. For example, changing volume or channel on a two-way radio is as easy as turning a dial on the top. On a Sonim you have to find a tiny push button on the side. Same for PTT; two-way radios have an un-missable big PTT button but the Sonim one is tiny. Not so bad day-to-day, but when stuff is going on and the adrenaline kicks in it's not so easy.

2 - The audio accessories are limited. Okay, so you can get cheap earpieces but what about professional ear hangers, covert kits, induction loops, etc? Also what about belt clips and Klick-Fast? In-car mounts? Radios have these, Sonim doesn't.

3 - The PTT feature relies on a third-party supplier; you can't buy it direct from Sonim and the single UK-based supplier (I'm told) can be a little hit and miss

What I'm proposing is a device which has the look and feel of a digital two-way radio, but uses the 3G network (legitimately!) to send/receive the voice communication similar to the Sonim PTT feature. An Airwave/Dolphin-like experience, but for commercial users.

If people like the Sonim PTT function, then this will take it to the next level.

If not, then maybe the product isn't the right fit for the CP/SV/Security market.

John
 
I'm one of those that strongly believes that technology has a very valuable place in all security related aspects. However, it can often remain the case that many devices simply are not relevant or 'accurate' to the operational needs. Whilst I agree that range may be important in some situations and circumstances, I do wonder what the relevance has for any commercial CP operation where instantaneous transmission and receiving is required over an extended range. PSD maybe with all the backup support from their 'friendlies' but commercial CP ops?

Covert functionality has a far better use and this is a focus not commercially considered to the extent it should be.



Rich H
 
Spot on. You don't even need a smartphone. The Sonim XP range is very rugged and using the group function and PTT you will achieve this.
Welcome to Sonim Technologies - Maker of the World's Toughest Phones
So is that effectively like making a conference call and using a mute button in reverse? ie. you set up a list of numbers for it to dial, it dials them all to set up a conference but no-one can hear what you say until you press the button. Does it lock out everyone else from sending until you release the button. Are you being charged for the time the "group" is phoned, or just for air time you're actually talking? Is it using the same amount of battery time as a normal mobile call when no-one is speaking, whereas normal radio uses far less when nothing is being said than it does when receiving a transmission or transmitting.
 
So is that effectively like making a conference call and using a mute button in reverse? ie. you set up a list of numbers for it to dial, it dials them all to set up a conference but no-one can hear what you say until you press the button. Does it lock out everyone else from sending until you release the button. Are you being charged for the time the "group" is phoned, or just for air time you're actually talking? Is it using the same amount of battery time as a normal mobile call when no-one is speaking, whereas normal radio uses far less when nothing is being said than it does when receiving a transmission or transmitting.
You pay per PTT push. Whoever pushes, transmits, the rest listen. Only one can talk at a time which actually makes sense. When no one is talking, there's no "call".

As mentioned above, accessories are limited, but for my use, when i used the, we had country wide coverage with PTT and global coverage as a cell phone. They were reliable, strong and could last weeks off a single charge.

They are NOT as simple as a two way radio, but in some cases, due to task and environmental limitations, one simply cannot work with a two way radio but can do with a cell phone.


I hope that helps somewhat.

m
m
 
What about "airwaves" that the police use. It's a rugged type radio which uses mobile phone networks to transmit. Might have been done already.
 
What I'm proposing is a device which has the look and feel of a digital two-way radio, but uses the 3G network (legitimately!) to send/receive the voice communication similar to the Sonim PTT feature. An Airwave/Dolphin-like experience, but for commercial users.

If not, then maybe the product isn't the right fit for the CP/SV/Security market.

John

From an SV side I would like the device to have the look of a mobile phone and not a radio.

I would also need the unit to be able to be used as a two way radio for those times that 3G does not work. I have been in built up areas where because of buildings no 3G at all.

There have only been a few occassions when 2 way radios have not had enough range to have any adverse affect on the job.

The one I remembered earlier was from Orange. I have had a quick google and this is what I found.
Orange's big push into push-to-talk ? The Register

Is your idea similar?
 
Yes, we played with Dolphin for a while - could TX/RX to the plot or nationwide, and send surv pix by it, phenomenal back then. That said, if you had to send someone 200 miles ahead 'just in case' as a longstop, there's no need for them to have instantaneous information that the subject has just boarded the train. In some cases, the use of airtime for this material actually detracts from the immediacy of the on-plot transmissions.

On the more massive organisational scale, having an ops room listen in but only interjecting with safety-related information keeps it tight, but a good team will gather material so quickly it will outstrip the ability of any organisation's intel backup to process and assess the value of live-time intel anyway. There's also the danger of wasting back-room resources if the researchers aren't properly managed and directed toward the important stuff, rather than the 'interesting'.

This all comes back to the question of the value of on-plot comms being shared over a broader field or distance. In my opinion, the more distant you are (geographically or organisationally), the greater you need the information precis'd or summarised for your use.
 
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