Ship with armed guards detained in Indian waters.Advanfort!

standto said:
Your correct on the instructor and his background but that doesn't mean he can't bring certain skills to the party. His expertise does lie in pistols and he is still subcontracted by the MOD to teach several elite units which speaks volumes for his credibility.
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Yes ! correct that that instructors can bring certain skills into any equation of training ,especialy to the untrained,and i have no problem in stating that Bob was ! and still is a very good and competent shooter,news to me about his contracts with the MOD and his teaching of Elite units ? (but i know nothing and who do we class as elite in these days ?) What is he teaching them,i hope its not the same skills as in the youtube vids ? Serious question ? Who and where was Bob trained in his CQB skills ?i ask because i have a professional interested.
 
keeniemeenieman said:
Yes ! correct that that instructors can bring certain skills into any equation of training ,especialy to the untrained,and i have no problem in stating that Bob was ! and still is a very good and competent shooter,news to me about his contracts with the MOD and his teaching of Elite units ? (but i know nothing and who do we class as elite in these days ?) What is he teaching them,i hope its not the same skills as in the youtube vids ? Serious question ? Who and where was Bob trained in his CQB skills ?i ask because i have a professional interested.
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I'll PM you!
 
One of the crew comes from the same town as me, and his girlfriend works for my cousin, they've just been told bail was refused at a hearing today.
 
I know quite a lot about this and for obvious reasons I cant go into things here. Hevnt been around much on this site in recent months.

However, I have a lot of experience in India dealing with these problems and have been sharing that but I need to change tack and fast. I need or more accurately would like to reach out to the families of the British guys on board. They need help. I can prove my credentials but I see Argyll has a contact. Happy to PM and give more background. So far this has been a lesson in how not to go about things in India. Some big issues on where Territorial Waters start and it is not as simplistic as is being protrayed here. Also they are at the moment being represented by a lawyer who specialises in Real Estate. If anyone want sto know how pear shaped these things can go then have a look at the ITLOS website and have a look at Holland v Russia.
 
this is getting to be a very long ordeal for these guys.
the Indians have had plenty of time to verify identity of all the ships crew.
the detention policy is starting to look very excessive.

its hard to see what point the Indians are making here - their own ships are at risk of piracy just like everyone else. the Indian Gov't is running the risk of making itself look petty and arbitrary in its behavior. they could have simply confiscated the weapons, then released the ship and its crew.

KL
 
We have seen a number of cases where local justice seen through the prism of the outside world seems bonkers. Remember the plane spotters in Greece charged with spying. But the criminalisation of crew is a real concern for mariners. What often happens is that companies ask the obvious question but dont think through what this forum would think of "actions on". Take Greenpeace. They ask themselves ;is what we are doing piracy? No. Do the Russians have a right to arrest us? No. Ergo we are fine. But noone seems to say "what if". What if they do charge us with piracy what does that look like then? So there you are "legally" operating a floating facility in the EEZ of some far flung place and the navy come out and question me about some other petty violation relating to pollution or MARPOL or burning bunkers with too much sulphur? You are an expert on territorial waters (12miles from the coast and all that and sanctions....yep read those) Thats ok after all you used to go there on a destroyer and invite these people to a cocktail party on the flight deck. Reasonable people and happy to follow them in. What if they then take you into port and then have serious questions about the kit on board and decide to charge you with weapons offences. Then it gets f***** serious and quickly.

You cannot then think that shouting at the injustice of it and banging on the doors of embassies is going to have an immediate effect. It takes time and if you get it wrong on day 1-3 and do not throw some serious resources at the problem then you are suddenly looking at months not weeks. You do not bash about in an Indian port claiming you are doing the world a favour. Homeland security is a big issue in some of these places.


Many of you have to have access to a lawyer 24 /7 for emergencies. As a TL you should have that person on fast dial. BIG TIP. The time to ring is when you are out at sea and being invited into the port for a chat. Once there you are stuck. Get advice outside territorial waters. Boarding a ship is a big deal and generally requires flag state permission. Greenpeace have now got their flag state to make an application to the International Court (ITLOS). That is a tough application they have made and the Court will rule on 22nd Nov. They are bascially saying that if the original arrest of the vessel was wrong then everything that comes after it is also wrong. I await with interest to see what the Court make of that. So thats when you realise that having your patrol craft and floating armouries registered in Sierra leone or Vanuatu is not so smart. Whilst this forum loves to throw rocks at advantfort I promise it can happen to any of you or your teams. Look at PVI in Eritrea. The Russians in Lagos. There are others....
 
Merchant Maritime Warfare Centre said:
Unless Advantfort are guaranteeing to pay the guys whilst detained and send the money to their families etc whilst they sort this mess out.... Then like SSAFA and various organisations depending on how long this plays out.... I'd like to be the first to offer an olive branch out to the families.... There is no SSAFA equivalent in the marsec industry but events like this will quickly give a reason to have one.....
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Was it not your company that 3 guys jumped from the monkey island into the drink when attacked? and in the debrief it was a common reason that their contract had a clause that if they were taken hostage, their pay stopped?
That may not be the case but if so, I find your comments above a bit rich.
 
it's pretty clear that the Indian Gov't is putting the thumbscrews down on Advantfort. I don't know all the history - but clearly the Indians are upset about something.

However, it's a very rotten situation when the junior security team members on that ship get stuck behind bars for this long, esp. over Christmas. I see no reason at all for the Indians to put them through such an ordeal. There is no reason why the Indians couldn't arrange a separate trial for the young guys, sentence them to "time served" and put them on a plane back home. There is such a thing as "getting too ugly".

And this is not a good time for India to create bad relations with the UK. Who knows ... events could soon unfold that require a lot of good cooperation.

KL
 
KingLeonidas said:
it's pretty clear that the Indian Gov't is putting the thumbscrews down on Advantfort. I don't know all the history - but clearly the Indians are upset about something.

However, it's a very rotten situation when the junior security team members on that ship get stuck behind bars for this long, esp. over Christmas. I see no reason at all for the Indians to put them through such an ordeal. There is no reason why the Indians couldn't arrange a separate trial for the young guys, sentence them to "time served" and put them on a plane back home. There is such a thing as "getting too ugly".

And this is not a good time for India to create bad relations with the UK. Who knows ... events could soon unfold that require a lot of good cooperation.

KL
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This is not a deliberate tactic but more a product of an inherently inefficient and gently corrupt system. There is some seinsitivity in this area. It is election season. Homeland security is an isue and this the 5th anniversay of Mumbai. The indians have refused one bail application pending completion of the investigation. Another will undoubtedly follow. YoU cannot rush or brow beat the Indian justice system.
 
I remember talking about this company almost a year ago. The consensus was to avoid them at all costs. The pictures on their website just screamed amateur hour.

And this is a perfect example of what working with a company like this can result in.

Let's also remember not to blame India. What would be the result of a ship loaded with weapons entering US waters without declaring it or having permits??

This all came about because Advanfort didn't want to pay the costs in Sri Lanka, but the company running ops in that region are heavily tied into the government. That's a lot of money for some powerful people. I guess this move has kicked the hornets nest a bit.



http://www.advanfort.com/AdvanFort-...to-better-protect-clientscrews-and-cargos.pdf
 
Possible. Seems like they are making a statement here.
Does Advantfort really have that kind of clout?

AFAIK, the guys in India are still sitting in that jail.
There is no doubt that the Indians could have resolved this in a more straightforward manner.
Everybody is playing hardball at this stage.

KL
 
I just hope that HMG/FCO aren't making their usual shite efforts to get them out- like those PVI lads in Eritrea a few yrs ago that they just left to rot.
Fu cked up.
 
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