Unlicensed Doormen; What to do?

L

LakeEffectKid

Full Registered User
Hi guys,

I'm back for another one of my (stupid) and highly lame requests for help and advice. What I need is help and advice about what to do about Unlicensed Door Supervisors.

Let me set it out for you; On some occasions, when I've been working, I've been working alongside people who either don't have a DS License (either because they don't, or because they forgot it at home), have a SG License, or use an expired one.

I know, from training, from the Legal viewpoint, that they are not permitted to be working there. And, when things get rough, they're the first ones to start something, and if the Police turn up, disappear totally.

What I need some help and advice about is, really;
Can I get in trouble if SIA Inspectors turn up and catch them, for working with them when I know they're not permitted to? (Stupid question, I know)
Should I bring this up to the Head Doorman (Who knows about it, on the night) / Management, & what do I say?
It it worth the risk staying with this company?


I know, from past experience, when the company has been short-staffed, they tend to get "friends" in to "help out with the doors", as well as subcontracting to other door companies. I've been in the position before where I've been informed of a date/time/location of a shift, and told, on the way there, that I would be running the door (I personally don't feel anywhere near experienced enough to call or refer to myself as Head Doorman). Upon arriving, done the standard venue checks, went to do the license checks/get copies of the numbers, only to find that they either don't have one, or have an expired one. In that situation, I have told them to go home, that I wasn't having them working with me, with no License, and even informed a manager about that on the night. He then subsequently sent them to another venue, said there wasn't enough people to spare, said I could take them or leave them, but there'd be nobody else coming, leaving me to run a venue at capacity, of just under 500 people, on a 14 hour shift.

Also, another slightly unrelated question; When, on a night out (Not working, just out as a civvie), I've seen so many Doorman, either with terrible work practices (Some very violent, some dealing on the door, others getting off with women to let them in without queueing), and other venues that hire only illegal security, with no License on display at all for any staff member.

Obviously, it's never cool to be a mole and rat someone out in the same profession as you, but can it be acceptable to inform the SIA/Police about illegal security and so on?


Many thanks guys, looking forwards to reading all of the brilliant advice you have!
 
point one. Dont bring it up with any other member of staff. ever. Reasons: a doorman always watches another doormans back. also, if they do get pinged in the end, they will think you tipped off the powers that be.

If you have a serious problem with it, then crime stoppers, phone up the SIA direct or find another company

Regarding other doorstaff out there, simply they aren't your problem, try and avoid the places with unlicensed staff. Just because they dont display license doesnt meant they dont have one. Failure to display is an offence but a very small one, and if you have reasonable reasons - you dont have to dispaly. for example your venue, people like to pull the badges off and run away. I personally keep my badge on my belt, its half on display....

Many venues, especially major clubs use in house security, many also get around the problem of licensing by employing stewards. Working at a lovely venue in North Greenwich I find that the 'stewards' are all bigger guys than us door staff. All bouncers from their own country and are just there to fight then dissapear. Its legal (to be a steward...)
 
Crime stoppers, sia, trading standards - grass them all up. None of these people are helping you or the industry out. There's no excuse of not being able to get licensed door supervisors in this day and age! You won't get in trouble.
 
You can't be prosecuted for working with them, only the employer can get in trouble for employing them. However, I'm not sure if you're officially HD if that would be seen as you are their manager, I doubt it if you're only doing it on an adhoc basis. Having said that I reported my own venue several times for persistently employing unlicensed staff and having unlicensed managers and nothing was ever done about it.

If DS are dealing I would suggest you report it to the police. Just because they happen to be masquerading as DS doesn't make them any less of a dealer.
 
Pyrene said:
point one. Dont bring it up with any other member of staff. ever. Reasons: a doorman always watches another doormans back. also, if they do get pinged in the end, they will think you tipped off the powers that be.

If you have a serious problem with it, then crime stoppers, phone up the SIA direct or find another company

Regarding other doorstaff out there, simply they aren't your problem, try and avoid the places with unlicensed staff. Just because they dont display license doesnt meant they dont have one. Failure to display is an offence but a very small one, and if you have reasonable reasons - you dont have to dispaly. for example your venue, people like to pull the badges off and run away. I personally keep my badge on my belt, its half on display....

Many venues, especially major clubs use in house security, many also get around the problem of licensing by employing stewards. Working at a lovely venue in North Greenwich I find that the 'stewards' are all bigger guys than us door staff. All bouncers from their own country and are just there to fight then dissapear. Its legal (to be a steward...)
Click to expand...

Don't mean to be funny here Pyrene, the majority of posts you place on this site is very useful particularly for the new to the industry, but what kind of advice are you giving here, first the fact that doorman look after each another....what you find is this tends to be a rarity in present times, the qualities you tend to find is what was set out in the original post...guys chatting up the skirt and guys on a power trip...until it goes wrong then you don't see them for dust, personally there's only 5 other individuals I work with, we trust each other, we know we're always observing what's going on and what each another is doing, when we see things are escalating we're there..together....like I say having a strong/professional team nowadays is a rare thing.

If you have a problem with people pulling off your licence you have two issues there....your not controlling the space around you & your wearing a shitty lanyard licence holder, if it happens it should only happen once, they don't get back! as you do...buy a belt/ arm holder..it's worn on the outer clothing it is then classed as displayed...which you MUST DO!, unless you have reported it lost or stolen, to which the SIA will have note of it if inspected, which I believe is a free replacement,


Next point, look the other way? It's not your problem, that's part of the problem why the industry is in the shit state it's in by looking the other way...how can standards be raised if you don't weed these guys out, get on the phone and do something about it,

final question...the use of stewards in a licensed premises...would that not suggest individuals working in a security role in a venue that supplies alcohol to members of the public? Why do we then need to pay the money to be trained and licensed to work in that environment...doesn't ring true to me... Be glad to be put straight with that one though,

Rant over

All the best

NJ708
 
NJ708 said:
Don't mean to be funny here Pyrene, the majority of posts you place on this site is very useful particularly for the new to the industry, but what kind of advice are you giving here, first the fact that doorman look after each another....what you find is this tends to be a rarity in present times, the qualities you tend to find is what was set out in the original post...guys chatting up the skirt and guys on a power trip...until it goes wrong then you don't see them for dust, personally there's only 5 other individuals I work with, we trust each other, we know we're always observing what's going on and what each another is doing, when we see things are escalating we're there..together....like I say having a strong/professional team nowadays is a rare thing.

If you have a problem with people pulling off your licence you have two issues there....your not controlling the space around you & your wearing a shitty lanyard licence holder, if it happens it should only happen once, they don't get back! as you do...buy a belt/ arm holder..it's worn on the outer clothing it is then classed as displayed...which you MUST DO!, unless you have reported it lost or stolen, to which the SIA will have note of it if inspected, which I believe is a free replacement,


Next point, look the other way? It's not your problem, that's part of the problem why the industry is in the shit state it's in by looking the other way...how can standards be raised if you don't weed these guys out, get on the phone and do something about it,

final question...the use of stewards in a licensed premises...would that not suggest individuals working in a security role in a venue that supplies alcohol to members of the public? Why do we then need to pay the money to be trained and licensed to work in that environment...doesn't ring true to me... Be glad to be put straight with that one though,

Rant over

All the best

NJ708
Click to expand...


NJ708, What I was trying to say is that there are many ways to look at it. A door team is a 'team' do you turn a blind eye until they have got their badge? do you report them? What if you speak to the head doorman/management about unlicensed staff, and SIA come knocking a few weeks later and start handing out big fines, all fingers will be pointing at you as a reason why they come along. What you do can have consiquences both sides, you just either need to decide to play ignorant or report it. Playing ignorant could bring un wanted attention from powers that be, and reporting it could result in you been out of a job and pissing off some big lads.

I've never had a license pulled off me, i tend to wear it on my belt, more secure. I use it as an example.

'stewards' from what i see is common practice. Call them public relations persons, hell call them glass collectors! one place I could mention, which name I will not broadcast on an open forum for various reasons, uses 'stewards'. We have around 6 guys on front door with SIA badges. further 10 - 20 inside some with licenses, some not, and a further few in civies walking around no license, no hi-viz, no nothing. How they deal with the local licensing is their own trick. Be it a loop hole, or paying people off I dont know I dont care. But I would much prefer to know that there are a couple of these 'brutes' knocking around, especially when all hell is set loose.
 
Pyrene, again it's not sorting the problem, the message should be simple not to get involved with venues who entertain using unlicensed staff on doors, or wannabe bar staff who fancy themselves as door staff, no wonder the shit hits the fan if gangs of guys in civvies going around thinking they run the show... If you yourself are happy that the guys standing beside you are operating that way then good luck to you, I've worked alongside a few characters and yes very good in a tight spot...but I'm sure you know what happens as repercussions with that....other characters fancying a crack at the 'team' or worse yet singling team members out at a later date to dish out a bit of payback...been on the receiving end myself!, it all leads back to bad things however you look at it..best policy stick to what you know & feel is right

If people are worried about pissing off some big blokes then they shouldn't be standing at the front door of a pub/club as thats exactly what you'll probably be doing on a nightly basis,

It's only my opinion but I think 'stewards' should stay in the stands/events bar staff behind the bar, and professional frontline door staff manning the venue,
 
I would much prefer to 'work' with the guy in civies who has come from another country, who did the doors out there and knows how to handle themselves, rather than a 5 foot tall 9 stone nothing, 18 year old kid the job centre pushed through an SIA course becuase he cant get any other work.

The 'steward' is as I said, a term, can be glass collectors - just 7 foot tall and built like an ox.

I think Lakes problem is that he has started to work on a site, where he later realises that some staff are unbadged. What I would do is weigh it all up, report it, speak to management (of security firm), live with it, leave the company.

Over all I would report it. The SIA take so long to investigate anything, ill be 50 before the check the club. Start looking for a new place to work, but dont leave till I find somewhere else to be. Thats what I would do, what you would do is probably different, along with another person, and another. The point I was trying to make is, do what you see fit. Theres the options, there are consequences, just think
 
I think however you term it it spells trouble Pyrene,

Nothing wrong with getting a helping hand by someone who knows how to handle themselves no matter where they come from, height, build etc, however still remains your playing with fire if they are being used as substitute to licensed DS,

I totally agree with what your saying about the caliber of individuals getting pumped through the system, that's the mess were faced with, with no real quality assurance on who enters into the security world, where do you set the bench mark though without the danger of becoming elitist, as argued in the past people need to start somewhere, with the right influence you can mould the newstart's in to assets in any sector, that's not going to happen by seasoned security operatives not leading the way in "trying" to make a difference by accepting the bad practice that's going on,

Anyway I'm sure Lake Effect has plenty of food for thought with this conversation,

Personally I think he should get looking for somewhere else, and would be first to say well done for picking up the phone especially if some rat is pushing at the front door,

All the best

NJ708
 
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