Use of Batons and Taser in Europe

G

grinny

Full Registered User
I have some of my guys working in Ibiza, Mallorca & Portugal on CP and DS assignments.

The guys on the CP are asking for Batons and Tasers! Does anyone know if these are legal to carry and use under Spanish law especially?

Thanks,

Vapour.
 
I wouldn't bother looking into it.

There are more appropriate and far more effective ways of dealing with risks to threat(s) through better use of manpower and procedure.



Rich H
 
Vapour,

An introduction on the forum goes a long way as I notice it's your first post. So to respond to your question from a legal standpoint the question would be raised as to who taught the ASP Baton or what every course you decide to take. Then you have issues like the use of force and the proportionate use of force. In terms of stun guns or tasers recently a young man was killed in Australia after being tasered 14 times. The use of force one employed can not be taken back. It's one of those things you got a lot of other things to worry about like documentation and reporting.

As a former use of force instructor in USA I don't know anyone in the civilian world I would turn lose with a baton or a taser. You have other issues like insurance etc that you need to get around especially if one of your guys uses the force option.

There is so much more I can say but we have been over this many times on the forum. Look under search and you find many answers.

tapmaster

ps you have to worry about the image of the client. How are they going to feel about the CP team carrying batons and tasers.
 
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did they say why they wanted the gear - what's the threat?

how about if you issue them tactical flashlights that are very robust - would that work as a compromise?
i never carry any flashlight that's not capable of doubling as a baton.

i'm new here too ... so I will take the advice offered above and look for discussions about batons and "use of force".
but my own impression is that generally the incidents where "excessive force" has been applied usually stem from guys who don't know their techniques well enough. You don't have to beat a would-be assailant until he's reduced to the consistency of a bread pudding. You just need to use the right force to the right location - it's professional.

KL
 
When I have spent time in Spain I have noticed security operatives carrying PR24s ASP's etc so I assume it's legal. I'm fairly sure incapassitant sprays like cs capta etc are legal but don't take my word for it! But even if it's legal look into the training and insurance aspect if you decide to go ahead!
 
I have been living on one of the Spanish islands for the past eight years and believe they are illegal for DS and CP.
The security operatives (who work closely with the police) and are in uniform are the Juarez de seguridad ( I think thats how its spelt) And these are the only legal DS you can use and these guys can carry batons although they are rare as they cost too much to employ and its easier for an employer
to employ 2 heavily set glass collectors who happen to stand on the door all night.
I have seen DS arrested for having extendable batons and have had a lot of interaction with the Spanish police and know a bit about the Spanish law.
So although i am not certain i would say im 99 per cent that they are illegal.
Hope it helps.
 
i'll throw in this thought. there's really no need to tell you guys here that the situation in Europe is deteriorating in some countries, and could get ugly in the next 5 years. not everywhere. but certainly in the southern countries like Greece, Spain, Italy and Portugal. my personal expectation is that some of these countries will be forced to leave the Union. there will be very high unemployment amongst young people (there already is in Greece and Spain), rising crime, and unrest on the streets, it really looks as though Europe will go through major political upheavals. So in this situation the guys working CP are really going to find themselves challenged. It certainly looks like they are going to need more tools to get their jobs done - it's far from easy to deal with unruly mobs on the streets. It could be very messy.

KL
 
KingLeonidas said:
here's a follow-up to my last comment. see this article on Europe - probably no surprise to a lot of folks here.
this is the new world where many CP teams will be operating in the future.
it is vastly different from todays world .. the old limitations on things like "use of force" are going to need to change,

The Largest Economy In The World Is Imploding Right In Front Of Our Eyes

KL
Click to expand...

I don't really agree KL. The impact of the global downturn which began the latter end of 2008 hasn't passed on to the streets so that any opportunistic threats are increased against those of affluence any more than what they are usually.

That article is written by someone with quite a pessimistic outlook. I could quite easily find an article written by an optimistic one. Mt point here being that - yes, Greece and countries (going) to experience similar will incur large protests but the actual role of CP in providing advice and guidance does not change.



Rich H
 
KingLeonidas said:
here's a follow-up to my last comment. see this article on Europe - probably no surprise to a lot of folks here.
this is the new world where many CP teams will be operating in the future.
it is vastly different from todays world .. the old limitations on things like "use of force" are going to need to change,

The Largest Economy In The World Is Imploding Right In Front Of Our Eyes

KL
Click to expand...

I don't really agree KL. The impact of the global downturn which began the latter end of 2008 hasn't passed on to the streets so that any opportunistic threats are increased against those of affluence any more than what they are usually.

That article is written by someone with quite a pessimistic outlook. I could quite easily find an article written by an optimistic one. Mt point here being that - yes, Greece and countries (going) to experience similar will incur large protests but the actual role of CP in providing advice and guidance does not change.



Rich H
 
Rich H said:
I wouldn't bother looking into it.

There are more appropriate and far more effective ways of dealing with risks to threat(s) through better use of manpower and procedure.



Rich H
Click to expand...

Well in theory may have some meaning what you say.
It all depends on who the book is intended.
But in practice things may well be difrentes.
In the field a baton can make some kind of miracles.
An electric baton also good.
 
Electric Baton is a cattle prod. In these times of cuts, protests etc we have to offer good advise and sound recommendations. Look no further than the situation at the US embassy in Libya where sound practices were overlooked. Not sure why!!!

One advise I would recommend as people like to say that they "blend in" is to take note of these anniversary dates of terrorism and terrorist attacks. Yes there are many to remember but, if you are what you say that you are then you can't overlook something like this. Especially as people will come to you for advise and guidance.

Cattle prod - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Tapmaster
 
But a bat can and should be the extension of a magic hand Rich H.
I think we can named a wand.

Kelemansa
 
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Tanman said:
I have been living on one of the Spanish islands for the past eight years and believe they are illegal for DS and CP.
The security operatives (who work closely with the police) and are in uniform are the Juarez de seguridad ( I think thats how its spelt) And these are the only legal DS you can use and these guys can carry batons although they are rare as they cost too much to employ and its easier for an employer
to employ 2 heavily set glass collectors who happen to stand on the door all night.
I have seen DS arrested for having extendable batons and have had a lot of interaction with the Spanish police and know a bit about the Spanish law.
So although i am not certain i would say im 99 per cent that they are illegal.
Hope it helps.
Click to expand...

Last time I was out in the Canaries the hotel Security were carrying wooden truncheons , this was around 5/6 years ago though so maybe laws have changed or they are slightly different out there.
 
Rich - I hope your optimisim works out. I am not saying that to be sarcastic. You are right when you perceive that Americans tend to have a pessimistic view of Europe. A lot of us believe the EU must break up because of the financial difficulties, and some countries will go their separate ways. I have no idea if it will happen, but my own faith on the western banking system is not especially high. that's an understatement.

however, i don't want you to think we're being biased against our UK and European colleagues. a growing number of us Yanks believe our own system is also going down the tubes - because of spiralling government debts. more are more people are preparing themselves for the idea of some type of disruption in basic services at some (undefined) point in the future.

i don't know if this is some giant wave of mental pessimism that is sweeping America.
i tend to think of it as realism myself.
but that's just me. :-)

KL
 
Still many countries in Europe like Finland.
You can carry baton in security without any restrictions.
Just that baton can not exceed 60 s in lenght, must be made out of hard plastic,rubber, wood etc.
no edges allowed ( round ).
Telescop baton requires 8 hrs course.

Is concidered " Use of force equipment ". Can be used at any time when use of force is required.
That would be when your verbal instructions have failed. Simple as that.
 
KL,

Its not a case of optimism. I was merely pointing out that the article you linked to was one point of view.

The actual state of countries economies may promote civil unrest but I do not see your point that this will in any way cause an increased problem for a CPT/BG. If a an unruly crowd is present you simply don't travel near them. It doesn't involve any increase in targeted action. As far as the use of batons is concerned then we'll agree to disagree.


Rich H
 
Sabre said:
Last time I was out in the Canaries the hotel Security were carrying wooden truncheons , this was around 5/6 years ago though so maybe laws have changed or they are slightly different out there.
Click to expand...


Your right that the hotel staff used to have batons and some retail security carry pistols
(dependant on what i dont know.) The main theme you will see is they are all in uniform and are all Canarian.
Im sure there is a govt run and monitored package that they can do for the job which entitles
them to carry Batons and Guns.
As for DS or CP they cannot. (Think there is a clause with regards to CPOs carrying pistols but its like rocking horse shit to get)
I have a lot of friends on the doors over there and im out of the sandpit in a couple of days so i could find out for certain
if the op is desperate to know.
its normally the 18-30s security that carry batons to keep us pissed up Brits in line.
Did you ever feel the end of it?
 
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