Compulsory PI training for CPOs
- Thread starter Oasis
- Start date
ah but is it SIA approved PI?
for example if you were a pre PI DS (so trained to be DS before sitting PI) and you took a "PI" course (advanced or whatever) it still did not tick the box for PI qualified DS. The only course the SIA accepted was the Upskilling for DS.
At the moment there is no legal requirement for PI to be taught on the CP course. There is not qualifiaction for CP PI. So the training you provide mick065 is in effect worthless (as it wont tick the SIA PI box if/when it comes around). However, for christ sake dont drop it
i think even though its not a box ticker, i think you having it on your course is a great thingBrengunner
Longterm Registered User
Hi Oasis
Your right, ive hurd this too and can see it happening. I believe the drive for this is as pyrene has mentioned for the reasons that if CP badged to be able to carry on doing as you can at the moment doorwork, you will need to have PI so that you can carry on working the doors in the future.
The only way this wont happen I believe is if the SIA decide they want to seperate the DS and CP quals, as in that in the future it maybe decided that CP badged persons will not be able to do the doors, they maybe able to only if its decided to include the PI qual.
I agree with you Oasis as far as PI not being much use with CP work as it stands, but I believe its so it covers CP to do the doors aswell as CP.
Cheers, Bren
Your right, ive hurd this too and can see it happening. I believe the drive for this is as pyrene has mentioned for the reasons that if CP badged to be able to carry on doing as you can at the moment doorwork, you will need to have PI so that you can carry on working the doors in the future.
The only way this wont happen I believe is if the SIA decide they want to seperate the DS and CP quals, as in that in the future it maybe decided that CP badged persons will not be able to do the doors, they maybe able to only if its decided to include the PI qual.
I agree with you Oasis as far as PI not being much use with CP work as it stands, but I believe its so it covers CP to do the doors aswell as CP.
Cheers, Bren
ah but is it SIA approved PI?
for example if you were a pre PI DS (so trained to be DS before sitting PI) and you took a "PI" course (advanced or whatever) it still did not tick the box for PI qualified DS. The only course the SIA accepted was the Upskilling for DS.
At the moment there is no legal requirement for PI to be taught on the CP course. There is not qualifiaction for CP PI. So the training you provide mick065 is in effect worthless (as it wont tick the SIA PI box if/when it comes around). However, for christ sake dont drop it
Check out their website, it is the level 2 certified PI.
PI is needed in CP but in a very different context to doorwork (in my opinion any way). What the SIA want you to learn may work on doors where there is a team of you and you are actually detaining people ect, but in CP especially if you are a lone operator you are not going to be restraining anyone! Your main concern is getting your principal to safety, that doesn't often give you time to try and be reasonable or restrain people, you have to "end the threat" and move your principal.
But unfortunately the SIA doesn't want people to be taught the real physical skills you may need in CP or on the doors as they could then be held liable if you cause injury using a technique you have learnt on an accredited course.
In both CP and DS work there may well be times that your actions are in a "grey area" legally (well as far as some police think). Even if you are 100% within your rights with justifiable force you may get arrested, and the problem with the magistrates courts it that they are not consistent in their convictions. The SIA want you to learn what I would call diplomatic or politically correct physical intervention, however as many of us know most of the time the only thing that will work especially on the doors due to alcohol and drugs, is compliance through pain that you can learn on C&R courses. By leading people out of venues by holding their arms ect leaves you vunerable to attact. If someone needs restraining the only way to do it effectively is quickly. And in CP I would doubt you would ever even use many of those techniques, it would be what ever gets you out of the situation the quickest. For those of you that have read Rich's book there is a great example in there when he was working on his own, his actions were spot on and worked, what the SIA want you to learn would have made the situation very bad!
Mick this is by no means having a pop at the fact you have the accredited PI course on your courses. It will be needed at some point in the future to keep the SIA happy. I know you and your instructors have the means and I'm sure you do also go above and beyond what the SIA want you to learn. By putting it on to your courses you are giving your students more value. This is just a rant at what the SIA think are valuable and appropriate skills. You know exactly what I think of your training and I will be back up as soon as I can sort some time out
From some of the stuff on the SIA course it would seem that none of their staff have ever put their badges in to practical use. The biggest problem is that almost everything they want you to learn is very PC and nicey nicey. For example when you do the scenarios on a DS course I have never heard one where a person walks up to a club, DS says "sorry not tonight, I believe you have already had enough to drink and you are to intoxicated for me to let you in by law" and then the guy tries to smack the DS the face and 4 of his mates join in. The SIA would have you believe that the person will say "ok not a problem" and walk on. If I was to have it my way you would be put into real scenarios on courses where there is actual fights, it would put off a lot of the jacket fillers on the doors! It then again may be I'm just synical and have t spoken to people nice enough for them not to kick off.
Wow just realised this has become another rant!
Exile
the point i was trying to make, was that it wont tick the future SIA box.
For example, people tried to get ahead of the game with this new upskilling course, by sitting a pi course. Now it is accredited PI, its the ICM/MAYBO/NFPS/Whatever accredited PI programe, however it is not the correct tick in the box the SIA wanted. A company in scotland, whoes name I will not name, made a taking on selling this course before the upskilling was announced. and the students still had to/will have to come back later and do the real course in upskilling DS.
What i am saying is that even though the PI is been taught on the course, it is not good enough for the SIA, as there is no "pi for CPO working in the DS environment" (or whatever they want to call it) course. Even though the teaching maybe exactly the same, the exam maybe exactly the same, its the wording on the top of the paper which is all that really matters.
if that makes any sense?
Ah I see what you mean, slightly crossed wires for a second. Well you would hope, as it meets the criteria for he DS that when they introduce it for CP so that you can work the doors it should in theory be the same course. But of course that would be if the SIA was run with people that have brains....
I'm by opinion both DS and CP should have PI, but they need to be specific for the task at hand. Both jobs have physical requirements, but both are completely different!
I would have thought that soon, no matter what courses you have done, you will still need 2 badges if you want to do both jobs. More money for the SIA! Unfortunately I was unlucky enough to renew my DS a few months before doing my CP doh! But the. You pay a reduced fee.... Oh great you may think..... Well ring the SIA say I sent my docs months ago and haven't heard a thing, lady says well we haven't received any, however I can do it all over the phone if you can pay on card now. I said yeah sure why not, paid my £110 or what ever it was then she says all we have to do is wait for your crb and your badge will be with you. So I ask the question... Well this phone call has taken 10 minutes and a crb check costs £40, bit of useless plastic takes a minute to make by a computer and uses a few pence worth of materials, so where the hell does all my money go?? Needless to say was a blank response!
Exile
I'm by opinion both DS and CP should have PI, but they need to be specific for the task at hand. Both jobs have physical requirements, but both are completely different!
I would have thought that soon, no matter what courses you have done, you will still need 2 badges if you want to do both jobs. More money for the SIA! Unfortunately I was unlucky enough to renew my DS a few months before doing my CP doh! But the. You pay a reduced fee.... Oh great you may think..... Well ring the SIA say I sent my docs months ago and haven't heard a thing, lady says well we haven't received any, however I can do it all over the phone if you can pay on card now. I said yeah sure why not, paid my £110 or what ever it was then she says all we have to do is wait for your crb and your badge will be with you. So I ask the question... Well this phone call has taken 10 minutes and a crb check costs £40, bit of useless plastic takes a minute to make by a computer and uses a few pence worth of materials, so where the hell does all my money go?? Needless to say was a blank response!
Exile
Actually mate it wasn't me that said PI is not much use for CP, we actually provide PI with CP training, but as you say its a different kind of CP and it seems a little unfair that CPOs can 'work the door' even if they haven't had PI training, as it isn't a requirement for the SIA CP licence!
Sadly though, as someone else has said, for the SIA, it's not about common sense, it will just be about making more money for them!
Brengunner
Longterm Registered User
Sorry mate, my mistake. I did my PI with my CP course, I was lead to believe that this wasnt so much as to tick the box for my CP badge as there would be many arguments against it being fit for purpose for CP.
The PI on my CP course was mainly done by my training provider to tick any potential box for the future regarding me working the doors with my CP badge, due-diligence with what has been discussed or talked about happening for over 4yrs now, that being CP to have similer quals as DS to carry on working the doors on your CP badge, also over 4yrs ago my training provider also qualified us in conflict management and spectator safety, again ticking any potential boxes for the future when carrying out other tasks under the CP badge.
I dont think the argument is really about if the bolt on courses suit CP, rarther the bolt on courses helping you to diverse when holding a CP badge, IE doorwork and events.
Hope this clarifies my post better lol
Cheers, bren
The PI on my CP course was mainly done by my training provider to tick any potential box for the future regarding me working the doors with my CP badge, due-diligence with what has been discussed or talked about happening for over 4yrs now, that being CP to have similer quals as DS to carry on working the doors on your CP badge, also over 4yrs ago my training provider also qualified us in conflict management and spectator safety, again ticking any potential boxes for the future when carrying out other tasks under the CP badge.
I dont think the argument is really about if the bolt on courses suit CP, rarther the bolt on courses helping you to diverse when holding a CP badge, IE doorwork and events.
Hope this clarifies my post better lol
Cheers, bren
It needs to be clarified otherwise you will have lots of guys who have wasted their money. Training providers should qualify exactly what their CP courses cover you for, if the PI qualification is recognized by SIA for CP operatives to carry out DS roles then fine, but if not we need honesty and not allow guys to waste money on what they think they get.
Check out their website, it is the level 2 certified PI.
PI is needed in CP but in a very different context to doorwork (in my opinion any way). What the SIA want you to learn may work on doors where there is a team of you and you are actually detaining people ect, but in CP especially if you are a lone operator you are not going to be restraining anyone! Your main concern is getting your principal to safety, that doesn't often give you time to try and be reasonable or restrain people, you have to "end the threat" and move your principal.
But unfortunately the SIA doesn't want people to be taught the real physical skills you may need in CP or on the doors as they could then be held liable if you cause injury using a technique you have learnt on an accredited course.
In both CP and DS work there may well be times that your actions are in a "grey area" legally (well as far as some police think). Even if you are 100% within your rights with justifiable force you may get arrested, and the problem with the magistrates courts it that they are not consistent in their convictions. The SIA want you to learn what I would call diplomatic or politically correct physical intervention, however as many of us know most of the time the only thing that will work especially on the doors due to alcohol and drugs, is compliance through pain that you can learn on C&R courses. By leading people out of venues by holding their arms ect leaves you vunerable to attact. If someone needs restraining the only way to do it effectively is quickly. And in CP I would doubt you would ever even use many of those techniques, it would be what ever gets you out of the situation the quickest. For those of you that have read Rich's book there is a great example in there when he was working on his own, his actions were spot on and worked, what the SIA want you to learn would have made the situation very bad!
Mick this is by no means having a pop at the fact you have the accredited PI course on your courses. It will be needed at some point in the future to keep the SIA happy. I know you and your instructors have the means and I'm sure you do also go above and beyond what the SIA want you to learn. By putting it on to your courses you are giving your students more value. This is just a rant at what the SIA think are valuable and appropriate skills. You know exactly what I think of your training and I will be back up as soon as I can sort some time out
From some of the stuff on the SIA course it would seem that none of their staff have ever put their badges in to practical use. The biggest problem is that almost everything they want you to learn is very PC and nicey nicey. For example when you do the scenarios on a DS course I have never heard one where a person walks up to a club, DS says "sorry not tonight, I believe you have already had enough to drink and you are to intoxicated for me to let you in by law" and then the guy tries to smack the DS the face and 4 of his mates join in. The SIA would have you believe that the person will say "ok not a problem" and walk on. If I was to have it my way you would be put into real scenarios on courses where there is actual fights, it would put off a lot of the jacket fillers on the doors! It then again may be I'm just synical and have t spoken to people nice enough for them not to kick off.
Wow just realised this has become another rant!
Exile
what book would that be by richard ? thanks
I agree tmac. I believe that coo should be taught the ds pi module, escourt techniques etc. And a whole other pi module specific for cp work. Maybe high impact removal of subject or holding back crowds and clearing through busy enviroments. I've not done a full cp course yet but I hope some of these things are already taught as it is.