Prometheus Medical VIPER Course
- Thread starter Midwales
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Scartissue
Longterm Registered User
I think a beasting (within reason) physically and mentally is what you need for the line of work you will be doing. I am surprised that no one has generated a course similar to Black Serpent which involves walking in remote and difficult terrain and treating casualties whilst exposed to the elements. I don't just mean outside the training block, I mean walking for a couple of miles then treating someone on a hilltop.
On my CP course the Instructors made us carry out a final exercise which involved contact drills, casualty treatment under fire and then a 1 mile run around the training area. I know we are civis now but it highlighted the people who would suffer if the s**t really did hit the fan in the sandpits! One guy couldn't even keep up with the stretcher with four lads carrying a 16 stone fijian. There were only about 6 out of twelve that made any decent contribution to carry the stretcher throughout.
If your hanging out of your a**e and can't even carry yourself a mile on an exercise how effective do you think you will be when you finally get to the casualty then have to carry them out of the area. Generally unless the environment is permissive you won't be using a stretcher... you will be dragging them or carrying them in a fireman's lifts.
Check out the Yantarni HEMT course. Aside from the course and ambulance attachments, we do a remote area exercise in the jungle and a final exercise at an operational oil and gas installation.
[url]www.yantarni.com.gt[/URL]
[url]www.yantarni.com.gt[/URL]
Scartissue
Longterm Registered User
Black Serpent is a course run by Medical Support Wing (MSW) or Medical Support Unit (MSU) to identify medics for potential employment within the Special Forces (SF) community.
The course is run over two weeks which involves testing a Class 1 Medics Battlefield Advanced Trauma Life Support (BATLS) skills, their physical ability and most of all their character when put under extreme physical and mental duress.
The first week involves the teaching of BATLS skills as well as a lot of physical training. In this week students will also have to carryout fast rope training, high water entry (10m), Basic Physical Fitness Assessment (BPFA), Combat Fitness Test (CFT) and a demanding swim test. The CFT is usually done around the 1hr 45min mark over fields and hills rather than on the roads, the BPFA has to be completed at the same level set down for normal units depending on sex and age and this is done on the first morning.
In the second week the students will be expected to do a hills phase, the routes are very similar to the SF cadres and will see the students running over hills such as Pen Y Fan and Voluntary Withdrawal (VW) hill. At the end of the march and navigation part of the day the student is usually thrown straight into a medical scenario somewhere on the hills to test they can operate to a high standard whilst tired and sore in austere environments.
This is not selection and does not compare to what the badged lads go through but it is still demanding and if your not fit, up to speed with your medical skills or just don't have the character to operate alongside the SF lads then you will fail.
Like the SF lads once you have passed the course you will carryout continuation training for roles such as Medical Emergency Response Team (MERT), Counter Terrorism or Seaborne operations to work with the Special Boat Service (SBS).
The term usually thrown round by the Medics working with UKSF is: "Good Medicine, Bad Places"
They are not SF Medics but medics who work with SF. If someone tells you that the are an SF medic then tell them to "Walt off". Yes the do some pretty good ops but you can only use SF once you have passed a recognised selection cadre.
Thanks Scartissue.
It was somewhat what I expected it to be. Some elements would be difficult or costly or both to provide as a "civilian course provider" but I can see the perspective.
What I really think would make things change for the better is an joint effort by the SERIOUS course providers to make course curriculums that could be adherede to world wide and thus gain worlwide recognition. What I mean is I took the HEMS level 1 course from XXX and you had the HEMS level 1 course from ZZZ, we would have been through the same lectures, scenarios and tests. So that the company AAA would look at the Cv and say Ahhh, they´re both HEMS level 1, certificates issued and all.
Similar to a PHTLS or ATCN or ATLS cerfificate.
That would weed out all the runts and no-gooders in the course provider business in a hurry.
Just my point of view.
It was somewhat what I expected it to be. Some elements would be difficult or costly or both to provide as a "civilian course provider" but I can see the perspective.
What I really think would make things change for the better is an joint effort by the SERIOUS course providers to make course curriculums that could be adherede to world wide and thus gain worlwide recognition. What I mean is I took the HEMS level 1 course from XXX and you had the HEMS level 1 course from ZZZ, we would have been through the same lectures, scenarios and tests. So that the company AAA would look at the Cv and say Ahhh, they´re both HEMS level 1, certificates issued and all.
Similar to a PHTLS or ATCN or ATLS cerfificate.
That would weed out all the runts and no-gooders in the course provider business in a hurry.
Just my point of view.
Starlight
Super Moderator
I've been trying to push PHTLS for ages, but the usual suspects won't go down that route because they're not PHTLS approved themselves, and would struggle to meet the requirements of a PHTLS faculty.
So instead of meeting an internationally accepted standard, they invent their own course which is based on FPOSi, so, difficult enough to be slightly challenging but easy enough to pass, give it an ally name, and hey presto, money in the bank.
So what you're suggesting Mike, already exists, it's just that for reasons more to do with the old boys net, it's not embraced by companies on the ground.
But I aggree. A common standard should be established. The Mil PHTLS should be used.
Furthermore, the HSC should be allowed to use more flexibility about who can and can't attend the offshore medics course.
So should team medics be a minimum of ALS, PHTLS and offshore medics? Absolutely, yes. But it'll never happen because there isn't the will to make it happen within the wider industry.
So instead of meeting an internationally accepted standard, they invent their own course which is based on FPOSi, so, difficult enough to be slightly challenging but easy enough to pass, give it an ally name, and hey presto, money in the bank.
So what you're suggesting Mike, already exists, it's just that for reasons more to do with the old boys net, it's not embraced by companies on the ground.
But I aggree. A common standard should be established. The Mil PHTLS should be used.
Furthermore, the HSC should be allowed to use more flexibility about who can and can't attend the offshore medics course.
So should team medics be a minimum of ALS, PHTLS and offshore medics? Absolutely, yes. But it'll never happen because there isn't the will to make it happen within the wider industry.
Starlight
Super Moderator
Not sure mate. There are too many 'players' involved all of whom have there own agendas and motives. They spend their lives trying to impress the value of their particular spin on a common sylabus (FPOSi) above the value of other almost identical training. One such TP is on this forum (in fact all of the others are as well) and has convinced a big player that MIRA is the only thing worth doing. WTF is that all about. I feel sorry for the guys that have to put their hands in their pockets just to keep their jobs.
Now I don't blame the TP for doing that at all. That's just good business, so all power to their elbow. What I do think objectionable, is that for reasons best known to the old boys net, well established internationally recognised REAL qualifications are being sidelined.
As I say to guys that are being compelled to undertake these TPs inventions, if you were to say to a potential employer, say NHS for instance, I'm MIRA or STORM or VIPER, they'd view that with no more credibility than someone who's completed FPOSi. You say your PHTLS and they'll take you much more seriously.
So the standard already exists, but getting people to embrace it will be a battle of epic proportions.
Now I don't blame the TP for doing that at all. That's just good business, so all power to their elbow. What I do think objectionable, is that for reasons best known to the old boys net, well established internationally recognised REAL qualifications are being sidelined.
As I say to guys that are being compelled to undertake these TPs inventions, if you were to say to a potential employer, say NHS for instance, I'm MIRA or STORM or VIPER, they'd view that with no more credibility than someone who's completed FPOSi. You say your PHTLS and they'll take you much more seriously.
So the standard already exists, but getting people to embrace it will be a battle of epic proportions.
I totally agree.
One problem is that the PHTLS-courses are so restricted and inaccesible that either some TP cheats, runs the course and hands over a fake certificate, thats fires right back at the poor client three years down the line, when times come for recertification. Or a TP invents something that looks like PHTLS, smells like PHTLS but sure isnt PHTLS, because its not backed by NAEMT.
So what to do, untill there is worldwide adherence to the golden standard of PHTLS ?
One problem is that the PHTLS-courses are so restricted and inaccesible that either some TP cheats, runs the course and hands over a fake certificate, thats fires right back at the poor client three years down the line, when times come for recertification. Or a TP invents something that looks like PHTLS, smells like PHTLS but sure isnt PHTLS, because its not backed by NAEMT.
So what to do, untill there is worldwide adherence to the golden standard of PHTLS ?
Very good points Starlight. I sit on both sides of the fence as a diligent medic and a TP trying to compete.
I think FPOS-I is a good basic bench mark, however you package it but it should be tailored to the appropriate environment.
Then we have the addition of enhanced skills which aren't recognised by a formal qualification but may be useful life saving interventions or may enable te tier 1 medic to assist the primary tier 2 medic.
Whilst PHTLS is a good international recognised standard, it really isn't a teaching or qualifying couse, rather a protocol driven course to allow medics (EMTs, nurses, Para, Doc) to operate within their current scope of practice but enableing them to think along common lines. A great course if taught well but again, as with Offshore Medic, there are pre requisites to attend. Due to the broad spectrum of experience and qualifications of attendees, there may be drug protocol discussions, advanced airway interventions and occaisionally, EMTs, Nurses etc come away thinking they are now qualified to carry out those interventions.
I do agree it is an appropriate bolt on to a medical qualification, if taught well and the scope is articulated appropriately by the trainer.
We are not a PHTLS provider but incorporate the AAOS Assessment & Treatment of Trauma course in our HEMT course (Yantarni) or use it as an add on to the standard FPOS-I (SOS Ltd). The ATT course concept is similar to the PHTLS with the benefit of having 2 distinct levels:
Basic - For First Responders (FPOS, EMT)
Advanced - For Paramedics +
It's virtually the same course and concepts but with a useful tier system.
I think FPOS-I is a good basic bench mark, however you package it but it should be tailored to the appropriate environment.
Then we have the addition of enhanced skills which aren't recognised by a formal qualification but may be useful life saving interventions or may enable te tier 1 medic to assist the primary tier 2 medic.
Whilst PHTLS is a good international recognised standard, it really isn't a teaching or qualifying couse, rather a protocol driven course to allow medics (EMTs, nurses, Para, Doc) to operate within their current scope of practice but enableing them to think along common lines. A great course if taught well but again, as with Offshore Medic, there are pre requisites to attend. Due to the broad spectrum of experience and qualifications of attendees, there may be drug protocol discussions, advanced airway interventions and occaisionally, EMTs, Nurses etc come away thinking they are now qualified to carry out those interventions.
I do agree it is an appropriate bolt on to a medical qualification, if taught well and the scope is articulated appropriately by the trainer.
We are not a PHTLS provider but incorporate the AAOS Assessment & Treatment of Trauma course in our HEMT course (Yantarni) or use it as an add on to the standard FPOS-I (SOS Ltd). The ATT course concept is similar to the PHTLS with the benefit of having 2 distinct levels:
Basic - For First Responders (FPOS, EMT)
Advanced - For Paramedics +
It's virtually the same course and concepts but with a useful tier system.
Scartissue
Longterm Registered User
Can you tell me what 4 courses these are then??? To work with UKSF you are required to be CMT 1 only. You will carry out the BATLS course on Black Serpent irrespective if you have it already or not and you must pass to a high standard.
HUET is part of the continuation training and is not completed during the Black Serpent cadre. There are plenty of other courses that you can do during your time with MSW or MSU but the list is extensive.
There is no award: CMT 1 SF. You are just a CMT 1 working for UKSF. The term SF is again only given to people who have passed a recognised SF Cadre such as SAS/SBS Selection, SRR Selection etc.
Scartissue
Longterm Registered User
Well if you have access to the website please enlighten us as I have passed Black Serpent and have never had to complete the patrols medic course. Maybe you are getting confused with the badged lads who have to do the Patrol Medics course as part of their continuation training? Then they are classed as the SF Patrol Medic for their call sign.
There is also no requirement for you to complete a jumps course unless you have specifically been tasked to work with Air Troop. A lot of lads do get this under their belt eventually but again you will have to pass P Coy to wear dutch wings, you will not wear Sabre wings unless you have passed selection. Most lads end up doing a squares course which does not entitle them to wear any form of wings until they pass P Coy or Selection.
The medics would not be stupid enough to call themselves SF Medics as the badged lads are not keen on people using the "SF" letters unless you have passed an SF Selection cadre.
Gents to throw a different angle unto the subject as Starlight has correctly stated, be careful what courses you do as they may have no currency whatsoever in the civvy/NHS or private ambulance world, UK based that is. An FPOSi is a good add on to the FAW that will open the door for you to work as an ECA (emergency care assistant). So before you book a course you may want to ensure you are future proofing yourself.
If a course is a sexed up FPOSi but doesn't satisfy the IHCD BTEC awarding body (not suggesting that the Viper does this) and you are issued an in-house certificate, then it will have no external currency or validity beyond the CP World, so be careful how you spend your money. Most FPOSi courses are delivered to satisfy the curriculum, however a good TP will add to the course depending on the needs of the group i.e. working with UK ambulance equipment/handover protocols for first responders, or battlefield trauma if CP related as examples, there is no need to state the course is any more than that.
As an example there are some private companies currently advertising for off duty fire-fighters with an EFAD driving qualification and FPOSi to work as ECA's. Ref the PHTLS, I believe an issue in accessing this course is that it is difficult, unless you work in the emergency care environment, to maintain the currency of this qualification. Most people who attend respond to 999 calls or are involved in the chain and it facilitates a broad spectrum of opinions, perspectives and develops skills and best practice. Recent courses have attracted basics doctors, fire fighters, paramedics, A&E staff. (Certainly this was the case on a course a colleague of mine attended).
To summarise, spend your money wisely, with an eye on the future and hopefully on something that satisfies the CP and civvy world.
If a course is a sexed up FPOSi but doesn't satisfy the IHCD BTEC awarding body (not suggesting that the Viper does this) and you are issued an in-house certificate, then it will have no external currency or validity beyond the CP World, so be careful how you spend your money. Most FPOSi courses are delivered to satisfy the curriculum, however a good TP will add to the course depending on the needs of the group i.e. working with UK ambulance equipment/handover protocols for first responders, or battlefield trauma if CP related as examples, there is no need to state the course is any more than that.
As an example there are some private companies currently advertising for off duty fire-fighters with an EFAD driving qualification and FPOSi to work as ECA's. Ref the PHTLS, I believe an issue in accessing this course is that it is difficult, unless you work in the emergency care environment, to maintain the currency of this qualification. Most people who attend respond to 999 calls or are involved in the chain and it facilitates a broad spectrum of opinions, perspectives and develops skills and best practice. Recent courses have attracted basics doctors, fire fighters, paramedics, A&E staff. (Certainly this was the case on a course a colleague of mine attended).
To summarise, spend your money wisely, with an eye on the future and hopefully on something that satisfies the CP and civvy world.
B25,
Just an additional note on the subject of working as an ECA, most private ambulance companies will require you to possess the IHCD Emergency Driving qualification which is a 3 week long course and on average costs £2.5k - this is because the NHS Trusts they work for stipulate it as a requirement.
As a member of the Fire Service, I have previously managed to offset this by showing evidence of an emergency response driving qualification and regularly responding to incidents (but they are still not that keen on this as a replacement).
ResQ
Just an additional note on the subject of working as an ECA, most private ambulance companies will require you to possess the IHCD Emergency Driving qualification which is a 3 week long course and on average costs £2.5k - this is because the NHS Trusts they work for stipulate it as a requirement.
As a member of the Fire Service, I have previously managed to offset this by showing evidence of an emergency response driving qualification and regularly responding to incidents (but they are still not that keen on this as a replacement).
ResQ
Question...if I may, Are other areas of Training within CP world so FEEKED UP as medical?
such as Fire Arms,, Driving,, etc... 1001 different titles for the same thing?
When is an FPOS i not an FPOSi?? as soon as you start adding things on & step outside the Edexel curriculum. How many of us TP's can put their hands up honestly & say yea I teach/instruct the manual handling bit... or similar areas. We all want what is best for the client etc..... but at the end of the week is it still an FPOSi course..? You cannot call yourself a Paramedic unless you have passed nationally recgognised training, which should all be to the standard... so who come we cant do the same for other courses... even flippin FAAW courses are getting 'sexed' up....... what doesnt help is HSE trying to put FAAW course away from their own department....
Sorry 'RANT' over, just getting fustrated with all different names & standards of courses....... (30 years medical practise, 4 years teaching, & been knocked back again as not qualified enough to be a TP..!!)
Macca
such as Fire Arms,, Driving,, etc... 1001 different titles for the same thing?
When is an FPOS i not an FPOSi?? as soon as you start adding things on & step outside the Edexel curriculum. How many of us TP's can put their hands up honestly & say yea I teach/instruct the manual handling bit... or similar areas. We all want what is best for the client etc..... but at the end of the week is it still an FPOSi course..? You cannot call yourself a Paramedic unless you have passed nationally recgognised training, which should all be to the standard... so who come we cant do the same for other courses... even flippin FAAW courses are getting 'sexed' up....... what doesnt help is HSE trying to put FAAW course away from their own department....
Sorry 'RANT' over, just getting fustrated with all different names & standards of courses....... (30 years medical practise, 4 years teaching, & been knocked back again as not qualified enough to be a TP..!!)
Macca
Whilst I totally agree with you Macca and Starlight and normally do on most issues, there is another side to this arguement.
The flip side is this.
FPOS-I is a very good course for numerous spheres, including ambulance ECA, First Responders, the security industry, Tier 1 Medics etc - there's no doubting that.
However, a delegate will only gain maximum benefit and learning if the course is appropriately tailored to their own environment.
No good a CPO working in an oil and gas environment attending a course predominantly for the local community first responder as the trainer will no doubt focus on the emergencies they encounter in that particular area.
Equally, a trainer from the appropriate background can add realism and motivation to the course and make it more pertinent and therefore more beneficial for not only the students but also future patients.
That said the basics will always be the same and transferable.
Here's the bit I agree / disagree on.
There's lot of criticism for these courses, some of which may be valid and some not. This is not a marketing exercise but i will use my course as an example. It is called HEMT. It is called HEMT and not FPOS-I because it is not a 5 day FPOS course, rather a comprehansive 14 day programme.
Whilst it culminates in the award of the FPOS qualification, it is a Hostile Environment Medical & Trauma course, which encompasses far more than the standard 5 days.
It covers the entire FPOS-I syllabus, including manual handling (students will be working on an ambulance at the end of it) but also covers the AAOS ATT syllabus, ambulance operations and enhanced skills for remote areas (Jungle exercise, enhanced skills, tissue lab, oil terminal exercise etc)
I couldn't call the course ATT because it's not. Nor EMT-B. It is an extended 'COURSE' which culminates in the 'AWARD' of various 'CERTIFICATES' and real world ambulance experience.
Similar but on a different scale altogether to attending the Offshore Medic course, which culminates in the award of PHTLS, ALS etc or a Paramedic Science Degree which culminates in the award of IHCD Technician and Paramedic.
If someone calls a bog standard 5 day FPOS course by a super sexy name, then maybe that fits the arguement as it is another title for the same course BUT an extended course with the syllabus mapped appropriately to various qualifications, should be seen as exactly that, a different COURSE of study which encompasses additonal awards.
The flip side is this.
FPOS-I is a very good course for numerous spheres, including ambulance ECA, First Responders, the security industry, Tier 1 Medics etc - there's no doubting that.
However, a delegate will only gain maximum benefit and learning if the course is appropriately tailored to their own environment.
No good a CPO working in an oil and gas environment attending a course predominantly for the local community first responder as the trainer will no doubt focus on the emergencies they encounter in that particular area.
Equally, a trainer from the appropriate background can add realism and motivation to the course and make it more pertinent and therefore more beneficial for not only the students but also future patients.
That said the basics will always be the same and transferable.
Here's the bit I agree / disagree on.
There's lot of criticism for these courses, some of which may be valid and some not. This is not a marketing exercise but i will use my course as an example. It is called HEMT. It is called HEMT and not FPOS-I because it is not a 5 day FPOS course, rather a comprehansive 14 day programme.
Whilst it culminates in the award of the FPOS qualification, it is a Hostile Environment Medical & Trauma course, which encompasses far more than the standard 5 days.
It covers the entire FPOS-I syllabus, including manual handling (students will be working on an ambulance at the end of it) but also covers the AAOS ATT syllabus, ambulance operations and enhanced skills for remote areas (Jungle exercise, enhanced skills, tissue lab, oil terminal exercise etc)
I couldn't call the course ATT because it's not. Nor EMT-B. It is an extended 'COURSE' which culminates in the 'AWARD' of various 'CERTIFICATES' and real world ambulance experience.
Similar but on a different scale altogether to attending the Offshore Medic course, which culminates in the award of PHTLS, ALS etc or a Paramedic Science Degree which culminates in the award of IHCD Technician and Paramedic.
If someone calls a bog standard 5 day FPOS course by a super sexy name, then maybe that fits the arguement as it is another title for the same course BUT an extended course with the syllabus mapped appropriately to various qualifications, should be seen as exactly that, a different COURSE of study which encompasses additonal awards.
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