Serious answers only please (except you Oddjob) :)

[SCT]

Here's a question.

What would you say is a fair price for a one week course in armed maritime defense tactics where some of the course took place on a real ship using using real weapons chambered for simmunition. Part of the course would also be live fire exercises against moving targets at sea, part would be range work aimed at improving weapons skills, and part would be on dry land with force on force exercises again using real weapons and simmunition?

Instructors are ex Navy Seals and ex USMC with vessel defense experience

We have been asked to look at this. We can certainly do it here in Florida out of Port Canaveral, but I need to assess demand and look at the cost benefit. As you can imagine, something like this isn't cheap to set up.

Any questions related to this are welcome.

For those of you who do not know what simmunition is look here: http://simunition.com/en

 

[SCT]

Just to add, when I said dry land I mean using a building as a simulation of the castle of a ship

 

[Cav1]

I believe for something like that in the UK we would probably looking at around £800 for 5 days training (£1000-£1200 with accomodation/food) depending on if there was a qualification available from it?

 

[SCT]

I believe for something like that in the UK we would probably looking at around £800 for 5 days training (£1000-£1200 with accomodation/food) depending on if there was a qualification available from it?

Thanks for the input.

Here's the thing. A course like this cannot be run in the UK, full stop. I am not aware of any comparable course being run anywhere. What we are talking about here is real weapons in real calibers (FNH 5.7, 5.56, 9mm, .45ACP etc etc), not airsoft or .22LR - (which is the only long gun caliber that can be used in the UK and there is no access there at all for handguns). We have access to cargo ships, container vessels, tankers etc where on deck training exercises can take place. We can also train at sea with live fire exercises aginst moving targets (that sorts out the men from the boys ). As for qualifications, this is something to be worked out with the industry.

What I am looking for here I think is to try and get a grasp of the value operators would put the knowledge and experience to be gained and, as I said, your input is welcome and useful. Thank you for that.

 

[luca]

Thanks for the input.

Here's the thing. A course like this cannot be run in the UK, full stop. I am not aware of any comparable course being run anywhere. What we are talking about here is real weapons in real calibers (FNH 5.7, 5.56, 9mm, .45ACP etc etc), not airsoft or .22LR - (which is the only long gun caliber that can be used in the UK and there is no access there at all for handguns). We have access to cargo ships, container vessels, tankers etc where on deck training exercises can take place. We can also train at sea with live fire exercises aginst moving targets (that sorts out the men from the boys ). As for qualifications, this is something to be worked out with the industry.

What I am looking for here I think is to try and get a grasp of the value operators would put the knowledge and experience to be gained and, as I said, your input is welcome and useful. Thank you for that.

If the qualifications help with future employment and the industry rate the course say if you came away with sso and stcw95 you could walk on to a well paid anti piracy job..with the back ground of your instructors...get the price right..could be a solid winner..

 

[Customloads]

We are looking at this too, and like everyone we are watching the way that qualification becomes defined.

For such a well rounded package that you describe, it would have to be three grand with food and accom included (downtime onboard is essential I believe).

 

[ed]

To mpctc

hey mate if you could get this together with a good quall at the end and maybe a few shipping companys that have said yes to the training and would look at this course as the one above all others it would be spot on as you have the background for the training and also could be run though your firearms training company sounds good

i bet there are some TPs in the UK that are shitting themselves reading what you could do if you can put it together lol

all the best to you regarding this new venrue hope you can pull it off

cheers ed

 

[igotanewpairofchavpants]

For what its worth i think that a course like you have described would be quite an interesting course to do, and for sure you would learn something new, regardless of how much/little experience you already had.

But its the same old, i dont think it would benefit one single operator trying to get into - or stay in maritime - it benefits the training provider. It would be a huge expense that experienced maritime blokes would resent paying and newbies would pay in the belief that it would get them a job. It just perpetuates the 'cult' of 'courses' which is all to prevalent in the armed forces and has naturally drifted across into the security industry.

There is presently a mad scramble to try and pre-empt firearms qualifications - i believe there is a need but anything over basic safety requirements will be too much and in british army parlance that would mean a basic WHT and some sort of basic apwt which would provide the necessary insurance/duty of care for the employers.

Maritime is not rocket science, lets not make it into some sort of special/black ops/special forces only/insert tp here nails weaponry course/ not an attendance course type affair.


-and when i am referring to maritime i mean blokes hardening and stagging on a ship - not the other parts of the industry of which there are many.

 

[saward]

The SSO course is defined by the IMO and Training Providers are accredited by the MCA or equivalent depending on country.

The STCW again covered by the same process.

The trainers in each case have to be experienced in the subject matter and as such are expected to have a viable background in the subject covered. Checkable of course!

So for anyone providing a 'Maritime Defense Course- Armed', who will be accrediting such a course?
What would be their recognised qualification to accredit such a course?

Even if not a 'maritime' firearms course but aimed at the maritime anti-piracy market, who becomes 'qualified to accredit such a course?

Saward

 

[SCT]

The SSO course is defined by the IMO and Training Providers are accredited by the MCA or equivalent depending on country.

The STCW again covered by the same process.

The trainers in each case have to be experienced in the subject matter and as such are expected to have a viable background in the subject covered. Checkable of course!

So for anyone providing a 'Maritime Defense Course- Armed', who will be accrediting such a course?
What would be their recognised qualification to accredit such a course?

Even if not a 'maritime' firearms course but aimed at the maritime anti-piracy market, who becomes 'qualified to accredit such a course?

Saward

This is a really good point. Although I think my original post needs to be clarified a little. I am not purporting to be an expert on MARSEC, not at all, but I have access to experienced trainers.

The original post came out of requests from past and potential clients for such a course, although I am not even sure that "course" is the right word. I agree somewhat with igotanewpairofchavpants that a lot of the stuff around benefits mainly the TP. I am in business to make money, of course I am. But, theres making money out of what you have a passion for (firearms), or making money just to have money. We can make a lot of money just out of the one day handgun drills & skills from visitors to Disneyland in Orlando. I was asked to look at the possibilities of putting together what I spoke about in the original post by a company currently operating armed security on-board merchant vessels. What I am trying to get a grasp of is "is it worth it". I would like to keep the price sensible while still making a profit. There is a big difference between shooting on a range and reacting under pressure or under fire and at least something of this ilk will give a taste of how it feels while imparting skills that can save your life and at the same time making it fun to do. I am open minded on the whole thing and we are certainly willing to work with other providers to, if not establish a standard, to make the facilities available. At the moment it is still a little blueshy, but it is certainly do-able. If any TPs are interested, contact me by PM. I am back in the UK for a few weeks from tomorrow.

PS. To the anonymous contact that came through the website. The answer is YES, there would be a free pissup and barbecue at the end of the week In fact I will take that one step further, I will personally take students on a hog hunt the day after it ends and they can shoot the fcuk out of a bunch of hogs with AR15s and handguns. Only rule is, "you kill it, you clean it" :

 

[ed]

This is a really good point. Although I think my original post needs to be clarified a little. I am not purporting to be an expert on MARSEC, not at all, but I have access to experienced trainers.

The original post came out of requests from past and potential clients for such a course, although I am not even sure that "course" is the right word. I agree somewhat with igotanewpairofchavpants that a lot of the stuff around benefits mainly the TP. I am in business to make money, of course I am. But, theres making money out of what you have a passion for (firearms), or making money just to have money. We can make a lot of money just out of the one day handgun drills & skills from visitors to Disneyland in Orlando. I was asked to look at the possibilities of putting together what I spoke about in the original post by a company currently operating armed security on-board merchant vessels. What I am trying to get a grasp of is "is it worth it". I would like to keep the price sensible while still making a profit. There is a big difference between shooting on a range and reacting under pressure or under fire and at least something of this ilk will give a taste of how it feels while imparting skills that can save your life and at the same time making it fun to do. I am open minded on the whole thing and we are certainly willing to work with other providers to, if not establish a standard, to make the facilities available. At the moment it is still a little blueshy, but it is certainly do-able. If any TPs are interested, contact me by PM. I am back in the UK for a few weeks from tomorrow.

PS. To the anonymous contact that came through the website. The answer is YES, there would be a free pissup and barbecue at the end of the week In fact I will take that one step further, I will personally take students on a hog hunt the day after it ends and they can shoot the fcuk out of a bunch of hogs with AR15s and handguns. Only rule is, "you kill it, you clean it" :

price wise a course like what you have said would be with filghts accom and the like over 10 to 14 days with all the marsec stuff in it 2800GBP maybe 3000GBP

have seen marsec course 10 days full 1200GBP with no weapons
weapons at moment in france you know who with 800GBP

so would have thought the lads from the states may find this a bit pricey at $6000


2000 for course 500 filghts another 500 accom going by the uk prices if you say

$3000 because of the exchange rate then that would be better for all yanks and brits


just a stab in the dark of course

ed

 

[ed]

$3000 because of the exchange rate then that would be better for all yanks and brits


that bit may have been wishful thinking i would have thought more around $4000 maybe $4500 may have been a better price but still in dollars so not bad for the brits may be good for the yanks

will have to see when they wake up lol

cheers ed

 

[Mick185]

why is there a need for force on force scenarios and training?

as far as i know there should be no requirement for CQB and onboard shootouts in Maritime Security and most companies i suggest have exactly the same SOP's once a ship does get boarded and that is to 'makesafe' and head to the Citadel.

Now i can appreciate that most would likely disregard that and make a point of stating that as long as they had rounds left then they are likely to keep their weapons in action and then take their chances with the sharks

But does anyone actually understand the implications of having to fight pirates onboard the ship itself rather than at a distance?

I would hazard a guess that most don't even realise that if Pirates are boarding a ship and they are not actually pointing a weapon at you at the time then legally you have no authority to shoot them, i would suggest people actually read and understand RUF in the first instance because the day will come when someone is hauled over the coals to answer questions on a contact.

Going back to the course and its content, long range marksmanship is perhaps the only thing i can see being of benefit and observation, if Pirates get that close that they are able to board a ship then the team should be sacked

 

[highseas66]

why is there a need for force on force scenarios and training?

as far as i know there should be no requirement for CQB and onboard shootouts in Maritime Security and most companies i suggest have exactly the same SOP's once a ship does get boarded and that is to 'makesafe' and head to the Citadel.

Now i can appreciate that most would likely disregard that and make a point of stating that as long as they had rounds left then they are likely to keep their weapons in action and then take their chances with the sharks

But does anyone actually understand the implications of having to fight pirates onboard the ship itself rather than at a distance?

I would hazard a guess that most don't even realise that if Pirates are boarding a ship and they are not actually pointing a weapon at you at the time then legally you have no authority to shoot them, i would suggest people actually read and understand RUF in the first instance because the day will come when someone is hauled over the coals to answer questions on a contact.

Going back to the course and its content, long range marksmanship is perhaps the only thing i can see being of benefit and observation, if Pirates get that close that they are able to board a ship then the team should be sacked

mick i think you will find that if pirates are boarding then its a threat to life even if they arent pointing weapons at you so you in my view have the right to protect yourselves, but again if they have boarded you as a security team should think about finding alternative employment!!!

 

[Mick185]

Most people assume that because they are pirates that if they are boarding then they are a threat to life but the first argument from a solicitor will be for you to show evidence of pirates ever actually having killed anyone when they are trying to hijack the ship, at the moment everything suggests that the only reason they actually fire at the ships is to force them to slow down through intimidation, after all its the crew they want as well.

Also some flag states will argue that you are defending the vessel from boarding but if they board then you are actually fighting on their sovereign territory, and in effect the resultant deaths of pirates dont actually take place in international waters.

Lastly, i do know that some companies SOP's reflect this and specifically state that you should makesafe your weapon and head to the citadel in the event of a boarding, particularly because there is no point in having one if everyone isnt inside it but also because the whole issue of having a gun battle on a ship is a massive grey area that has yet to be tested in court, but it will be one day

The legal test is when they are not pointing a weapon but climbing a ladder, the intent to 'hurt' someone may be there but whilst the Geneva convention might allow you to shoot at paratroopers descending onto your position, i guarantee that the law would still question shooting a pirate off a ladder particularly when he is not able to defend himself either (as strange as that sounds you can bet that is a scenario that has already been looked at it in detail).

Also on the whole RUF issue, questions will be asked when a skiff that contained 7 people made to attack or intimidate a vessel and the security team then pumped a shed load of rounds into the skiff, the first question that will get asked is how many rounds did you fire, the second will be was every single one of them shots necessary to protect yourself or others from the attack, if so how many targets did you shoot at, how many had weapons blah blah blah blah

People need to get used to the fact that the more this industry tightens up, the closer it will be to someone ending up in a dock, this leads me back to the importance of marksmanship over CQB training and probably even more important, the need for some sort of judgement shoot training which gives those pulling the trigger a chance to analyse and explain why they pulled it, after all the TL under the authority of the Master may well instigate the shooting but they are not the ones that will end up in the dock for pulling the trigger themselves

Anyway, i digress


Courageous inactivity is another facet of RUF that people should actually consider, after all since when do you react to anything other than 'effective' enemy fire, if the rounds arent landing on the bridge, do you really need to open fire at that point???

Food for thought

 

[Costa.Steven]

Thanks for the input.

Here's the thing. A course like this cannot be run in the UK, full stop. I am not aware of any comparable course being run anywhere. What we are talking about here is real weapons in real calibers (FNH 5.7, 5.56, 9mm, .45ACP etc etc), not airsoft or .22LR - (which is the only long gun caliber that can be used in the UK and there is no access there at all for handguns)

Just to point out there are Firearms course with real weapons currently running in the UK. Dont get me wrong what you are talking about doing sounds like it would be a very good course.

 

[SCT]

Thanks for the input.

Here's the thing. A course like this cannot be run in the UK, full stop. I am not aware of any comparable course being run anywhere. What we are talking about here is real weapons in real calibers (FNH 5.7, 5.56, 9mm, .45ACP etc etc), not airsoft or .22LR - (which is the only long gun caliber that can be used in the UK and there is no access there at all for handguns)

Just to point out there are Firearms course with real weapons currently running in the UK. Dont get me wrong what you are talking about doing sounds like it would be a very good course.

I would like you to tell me where tactical weapons courses using semi-automatic handguns and assault weapons in large caliber are taking place in the UK

 

[davidd]

If you said you wanted to run this type of course for coastguards and other agencies that 'board' vessels for various reasons THEN yes it sounds like a good course....But its not going to be something I would ever do (apart from if it was free and for pure interest value) as Mick185 and others have stated this type of training bares little or no relation to the work 'we' as VPT/ MLSO or whatever they call us this week do on transits.

 

[SCT]

If you said you wanted to run this type of course for coastguards and other agencies that 'board' vessels for various reasons THEN yes it sounds like a good course....But its not going to be something I would ever do (apart from if it was free and for pure interest value) as Mick185 and others have stated this type of training bares little or no relation to the work 'we' as VPT/ MLSO or whatever they call us this week do on transits.

Firstly, the "course" doesn't exist in any form yet. The idea of the original post was to get an idea of the demand of training areas as described and the value of making them available in a structured way. Courses ARE being run for agencies. You said you wouldn't do it, thats fine..... It may bear no relation to what YOU are doing, but the enquiries we have had are from good sized employers in MARSEC.

Thanks for the input

 

[Mick185]

I would like you to tell me where tactical weapons courses using semi-automatic handguns and assault weapons in large caliber are taking place in the UK

Seemingly there is a company able to offer a course that uses 7.62/.308 out to 700m which is specific to Maritime Security, using a target that is floated on water, the course is run in Wales i believe and from what i know concentrates on marksmanship rather than all this CQB stuff, boarding boats and switching between primary and secondary whilst snap shooting on the move, all the sort of stuff that is completely irrelevant in my opinion to defending a vessel from a distance (which lets face it, if you cant do the job when all the advantages are in your favour such as elevation, larger effective range and a more stable platform then should you really be aiming the weapon in the first place? )

That being said there are still people out there that think warning shots can be fired at 1nm