You will all love this!

OJ, I do agree with what your saying but Door Work is based upon confrontation where as CP in my opinion(I could be wrong) is based more on awareness/thinking 5 steps ahead to avoid that bringing together of confrontation and that reflects in how easy it is to get a job on the doors compared to a full time role in CP and the pay.

I'm not degrading door work but I fail to see how you can compare the two.
 
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I don't hold the two the same, that's what I'm saying. (poorly and confusingly it seems)
A good DS will have great observation skills, great ability to assess a situation at its inception.
He will be tested in physical confrontation, depending on the door on a daily basis.
For the UK market those hands on skills are more valuable in many cases than good weapons handling skiils.
A lot of the guys holding UK CP badges, have never been in full on confrontations, wouldn't recognise the build up to trouble, even if it had teeth and was roaring at them, especially the young newbies and wannabees.
The specialist roles are best left to just that specialists with lots of real experience.
But there are certain skills and mind sets that set many apart. and can lend themselves to both jobs.
As a DS, a good DS, you must be Talker, walker and watcher.
These skills are also relevant to CP. or so I feel, they have served me well in both fields and many other tasks across the industry.
I'm not explaining it very well, hope you get were I'm going.
 
ENJ1986 said:
OJ, I do agree with what your saying but Door Work is based upon confrontation where as CP in my opinion(I could be wrong) is based more on awareness/thinking 5 steps ahead to avoid that bringing together of confrontation and that reflects in how easy it is to get a job on the doors compared to a full time role in CP and the pay.

I'm not degrading door work but I fail to see how you can compare the two.
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Please stop talking shhhhiiiiitttttteeee!

As OJ has stated the two roles are different but a decent DS can and will be able to work under supervision quite easily on an RST job and also with further training become a good and natural CPO, working the doors for many years prior to becoming a CPO can help greatly towards work in the UK, working the doors not just now but since time began relied upon the "doorman" seeing things coming from a mile off, certain things can be seen by an ex-doorman of credibility as a CPO that Mr 26yrs SF would struggle seeing if it poked him in the eye!

As for confrontation, a doorman will be more used to this than any ex serving member of the armed forces, in certain situations, i suggest you try doing the doors for a couple of years and learn something to bolster up your C.V i would be suprised to hear you try and tell me you have??

If your trying to make your point, do it with some experience of the subject or dont feckin bother!

Regards, Brengunner.
 
Below are just my simple musings on skillsets in some of the professional DS I have met and worked with over the last 28+ years (Pre SIA as well)and what I have seen in action. Also a brief list of what I and others I know try to bring to the table when heading/working a door.

DS skillsets. (Professional)

*Trust. Integrity. Ability. Professionalism.

*Threat awareness:
Actions on in the event of...

*Confrontation: (Conflict management and PI!)
Avoidance and Actions on.

* Law:
Sound knowledge of legal issues pertaining to both licensing law and general law.

* Team leader/Team player:
Both are interchangeable when the occasion arises.

*Basic Surveillance skills:
Probably some of the best people/Body language/character/situationally aware people out there. People watch is what a professional DS does for a living at times.

* Crowd/Que and large Same sex only/group control/denial.

* Threat/Risk assessments. Integration and liasing with all the emergency services as well as Government departments IE SIA, Council, CCTV (Tango Victor) etc in regard to events such as Fire/POI/Crime/Underage drinking/Drugs/Search procedures etc.

*Security of venue/staff and management. This shouild cover ALL issues pertaining to the venue being able to operate in a safe and legal enviroment. It must cover all issues raised in regards to its functioning in a manner allowing everyone to play their part.

*Communication. Radios checked, tested and charged. KISS/CLAP adhered to in regards to usage and direction from TL. Line of sight maintained where possible in regards to eyes on in a team role. Backup speed dial numbers of emergency services/Hospitals etc stored on mobile and available on the staff venue phones. Personal communication between team and staff, both prior to start of duties and at end of. Team Brief/Debrief. Before and at the end of each shift/weekend. Issues raised, notes taken and acted on.

*Basic First Aid: Maintanance of life/Wellbeing must be the aim, until Paramedic/Ambulance/Doctor arrive if needed.
Treatment of Shock, drug/alcohol abuse. Dehydration, Feints, Fits, Allergic reactions,Choking/Asthma attack,Seizures etc. Treatment of open wounds, Bleeding,Fractures,Cuts and Glassing/GS/Knife wounds, burns. Use of a well stocked, easily accessable first aid kit on site.

Security consultant:
Being able to advise and offer an overview from a security perspective in regards to venue policy as well as areas such as.

*Camera/Lighting placement and effectiveness.

*Personal staff safety.
Aims: To mitigate risk via.

Use of reputable taxi firm. Use and knowledge of safe routes to and from work. Avoidance of routine. Lone worker vulnerability issues when leaving/arriving or working at a venue. Ability to use comms/Radios on site. Fire/Evacuation drills.

*Panic alarms. Speed dial emergency/family/friends numbers stored on mobile. Actions on in the event of an incident not specific to their duties.


* Basic medical details. IE: Blood type/allergies etc.

* Cash and valuables.
Securing and protection of:
Banking/Takings collected or taken to deposit point or stored secure on site. Inherent dangers/risks from each action used.

Also liberal doses of 'Humour' and rest, tea/coffee breaks with the occasional pack of Bourbons/Werthers thrown in as a mood enhancer when spirits flag.... ;)

"Sound familiar to anyone CP/RST tasked on here?"

max
 
Brengunner said:
Please stop talking shhhhiiiiitttttteeee!

As OJ has stated the two roles are different but a decent DS can and will be able to work under supervision quite easily on an RST job and also with further training become a good and natural CPO, working the doors for many years prior to becoming a CPO can help greatly towards work in the UK, working the doors not just now but since time began relied upon the "doorman" seeing things coming from a mile off, certain things can be seen by an ex-doorman of credibility as a CPO that Mr 26yrs SF would struggle seeing if it poked him in the eye!

As for confrontation, a doorman will be more used to this than any ex serving member of the armed forces, in certain situations, i suggest you try doing the doors for a couple of years and learn something to bolster up your C.V i would be suprised to hear you try and tell me you have??

If your trying to make your point, do it with some experience of the subject or dont feckin bother!

Regards, Brengunner.
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I'm ex-Police so have been in a few scuffles, also I did door work in Elephant and Castle and Stratford for a very short period of time just for the conflict side of things,sadly my experience hasn't been as good as yours. So my experience is limited and I will happily admit that I am not experienced. I'd say 3.5-4 years from a Police/Security Management/Doorwork/CP point of view so you're right.

OJ, you're making sense. It's interesting in the amount of years you've been doing door work, you can count on 2 hands how many good DS you've come across, that's a very small number and I clearly didn't meet a good one hence my opinion is what it is.
 
I didn't mean to kick off a DS v CP situation, and it seems to have raised some strong opinions. (a little undeserved maybe boys)
Not far removed from Civi v Military really.
I was trying to say that many of the new guys just don't come with the skills sets or aptitude to do DS work properly, let alone transfer into CP roles.
yet the right guys can make the transition readily and the Door, the right doors, can develope so many skills applicable to CP, especially to the UK Executive CP market.
If only DS training included advanced driving, it would be brilliant, oh I forgot it's not included in CP training either is it. (silly me)
as regards the counting the number of good DS, I meant currently.
Most of the brilliant ones of yesterday are sadly dead or retired.
and I knew a lot of good, really good DS, that I trusted my life to, in confidence every night.
Even the bastard who coshed me unconscious on my first night ever on the door, honest mistake apparently. (didn't recognise me, and i got involved in breaking up a fight as I walked through the door in my coat, before i had been introduced or started work, whoops)
 
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RKT said:
You are right, however I am sure that the DS doing RST at the private residence you are referring to are protecting the property, NOT the client or they would need a CP badge wouldn't they? If they are working in a hotel, surely they are protecting the clients room and property and NOT the client, or they would need a CP badge wouldn't they? In fact both of the above, looking after property, can be carried out on a Security Guarding badge and, you are right, surveillance awareness is not taught on THAT course.

As for the burning building, I am sure that a chamber maid can escort anyone out of one but as to your point maybe, just maybe using DS in RST roles is wrong and you should be using people that have done a CP course and hold a CP licence to carry out RST roles when the client is there.

Maybe I am wrong!

Stay Safe

KT
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But KT if the chamber maid and the DS working RST have taken the client out of the hotel, who is protecting the client. Which after all is our job.
 
More now than ever its easy for people to have the badge but not the salt, without going off thread it takes all sorts from all walks of life to be good at what they do, years ago you could use a blanket phrase to cover one sector, now its harder to do so and i guess thats something the SIA has created with its not fit for purpose minimum requirements and allowing so many TPs to provide inadiquate training.

Not only is the DS sector getting over run with training which at the end of the day is designed only to cover peoples arses but also its effecting the CP sector, it seems were all wanting to get on and do our jobs but are hindered by the good old red tape.

We will just have to keep jumping through those hoops for now i guess, all of us!

Regards, Brengunner
 
ENJ1986 said:
I'm ex-Police so have been in a few scuffles, also I did door work in Elephant and Castle and Stratford for a very short period of time just for the conflict side of things,sadly my experience hasn't been as good as yours. So my experience is limited and I will happily admit that I am not experienced. I'd say 3.5-4 years from a Police/Security Management/Doorwork/CP point of view so you're right.
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Fair enough mate and sorry for perhaps being a little blunt, 95% of my doorwork experience over 20yrs has been working within an "in-house" run door, so ive been spoilt too much i suppose, the benefit of this is being able to pick the best from the rest so to speak.

My experience working for big companies is poor, thats when you see the jacket fillers come along and i suppose this maybe more of what youve experienced???

Thanks again, Brengunner
 
I agree with Oddjob, not trying to start an us v them, however it is the DS steering group that want CP licences, without Physical intervention training to be stopped from working doors. Despite the fact that all the CPO's I know have unarmed combat training and regardless of that, I am pretty sure if you are a CP and in a fight with someone you really screwed up and will be looking for a new job tomorrow anyway. Most civ CP's come from door work but they are as someone said the minority. So if they are asking us to take there training to work a door, shouldn't we be able to ask them to take the min req training in RST. Which at night when the protection detail go home to sleep are the only people protecting the client.
 
To anyone suggesting a DS can make a good CPO but not vice versa or a CPO can make a good DS but not the same in the other direction: Shut up you bigoted fool.

In ANY case it is down to the individual. Some may need more coaching in either direction, some may take more naturally to it.

It is down to an individuals ability to adapt and the mindset they adopt throughout. Some DS are not cut out to be CP guys, much like some CPO's are not cut out to be DS and we all know right now theres a lot of them cutting about the place who are not cut out to be in the security industry.
 
In less than 10 lines scab, you have managed to say what I haven't managed to express in more than a 100 lines.
It's the rambling paddy part of me I fear.
Thanks and yes, you are correct.
 
It was ten lines on my screen. But meh. Thanks OJ.

My patience with this industry's general reactions to things has grown thin since all the new SIA revelation has been revealed; so am endeavouring to cut to the point.

And you know what I'd like to add? What about shop guards. All this bullshit about CPO's and DS. How many DS / CPO's have to deal with desperate crackheads trying to steal stuff for their next fix on a daily basis. A bit of liquid courage in a punter does not compare to drug induced delirium and desperation, in my own experience.
 
OK right!

Personally i dont know why the SIA simply doesnt just include all the relivent extra training they want DS/CPOs to do and make it minimum requirements for the courses to gain thier badge.


The DS do thier course covering "a door supervisors role" with the PI, CM, F/aid bolted on.

The CPOs do thier course covering "a CPOs role" with the PI, CM, F/aid bolted on.

That way if your a CPO you can do doorwork, for the amount a person pays out for CP training and the anguish they have finding work, they may as well deserve the right to earn a little of thier money back working the doors lol

And if in the future they want us all to learn how to stick a broom up our arses aswell then that can be a course we can complete prior to renewing thier license.

Cheers Bren
 
Bren,

That has been suggested to them. By myself included at one of the CP network meetings where the issue came up. What I found amusing what in a room of thirty five-ish self proclaimed industry professionals (me included obviously) when ideas were being banded about it was me who chimed in with "Well why not just include the different modules into the CP training criteria?" or somesuch words to that effect.

Not that I like to suggest I'm special or anything (despite my mothers protestations to that effect) but well... Yeah. Point made I think. Suffice to say, it was nodded and smiled at. And now here we are. Its possibly happening. But the industry does not want to have to pay to update its skills. Everyone's already learned all they need to know, ever. Well. Tough shit I say to them!
 
Scab
i agree with your mother.
You're SPECIAL alright, very special.
It was ridiculous from get go that so many things were missing from all the SIA approved courses, PI, Driving, fitness, the list is endless and what they did stipulate has been ignored or rode over.
The ability to speak English comes to mind.
 
Gloves said:
But KT if the chamber maid and the DS working RST have taken the client out of the hotel, who is protecting the client. Which after all is our job.
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Totally right Mr Gloves, CPOs protecting clients, DS protecting Doors and Chambermaids in beds!!
 
Oddjob said:
Scab
i agree with your mother.
You're SPECIAL alright, very special.
It was ridiculous from get go that so many things were missing from all the SIA approved courses, PI, Driving, fitness, the list is endless and what they did stipulate has been ignored or rode over.
The ability to speak English comes to mind.
Click to expand...

Oh Oddjob, don't get me going on the list of things both the original and current SIA curriculum has left out, we will be here for hours.
 
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