CP and RST Pay Scales/ New Rates proposed.

Had some emails regarding hostile rates. I'm looking to see the best way to format these. I will take the days worked in one year and post the average earnt for each day worked such as follows:

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Aegis - Iraq

PSD team member Rate:

exchange rate equates to an average of £70k pa.

9 weeks on 3 weeks off. Paid leave.

To calculate daily total rate depending on how you wish to look at it:

52 weeks/9+3(12)= 4.3333 x 9 (weeks worked) = 39 weeks worked x 7 days = 273 days worked.

273 days worked at £256.41 per day on ground = £70,000.


Hours worked: Varies due to task and area posted to.

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Control Risk Group - Iraq

PSD team member Rate: Different rates, but the one emailed to me is:

Average £172 per day depending on task/location.

9 weeks on, 3 weeks off. Unpaid leave.

273 days worked at £172.00 per day on ground = £46,956 pa


Hours worked: Varies due to task and area posted to.

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Armour Group - Afghanistan

PSD team member Rate: Different rates, but the one emailed to me is:

Average £40k pa. 9 weeks on, 3 weeks off.

£40000 = 52/12x9x7=273 days on ground / £40k = £146.52

273 days worked at £146.52 per day on ground = £40,000 pa.

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Keep them coming fellas.
 
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Absolutely right Mickworldwide..and it hasn't surprised me in the least that there are not many replies to my request....I think Mick that you must have been one of the fortunate to secure that pay rate? and good luck to you mate, because I wish that I could have...If I have once again exposed another myth or fantsay about this industry then of course I offer my sincere apologies to those who enjoy fantasizing...
 
Lets not forget guys that with some companies the Exchange rate is all important...Example: October 2003 US Dollar @ 1.67 November 2003 US Dollar @ 1.89And.... has not fallen below this rate since...
 
Absolutely right Mickworldwide..and it hasn't surprised me in the least that there are not many replies to my request....I think Mick that you must have been one of the fortunate to secure that pay rate? and good luck to you mate, because I wish that I could have...If I have once again exposed another myth or fantsay about this industry then of course I offer my sincere apologies to those who enjoy fantasizing...

I am not quite sure what you are getting at? In 2003 and early 2004 a few companies were paying £400/500 per day. Just because persons decide not to contact you with their previous pay rates Carl, doesn't really expose this rate as a myth does it? Obviously there are different rates for different skill sets and backgrounds. For example, an ex SAS Operator would easily have secured £700-£1000 per day (2003/4) whilst someone else would be on £325....see what I mean? I don't think you will receive many emails/pm's from ex blades and "shakey boats" willing to give you their old pay rates, just a thought mate.

Gents, we are taking this thread off it's original track, which was to discuss a revamp and regulation of pay and conditions within this industry. Can we please keep this original idea going? Thanks.

Once again thanks for all your emails, I will update the company pay rates shortly.
 
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Shakes...just an opinion based upon experience mate...and I agree with the above.

So, no more distractions from me and good luck with your project...
 
Shakes...just an opinion based upon experience mate...and I agree with the above.

So, no more distractions from me and good luck with your project...

Carl, I fear maybe you were working for one of the bad payers?
Absolutely right Mickworldwide..and it hasn't surprised me in the least that there are not many replies to my request....I think Mick that you must have been one of the fortunate to secure that pay rate? and good luck to you mate, because I wish that I could have...If I have once again exposed another myth or fantsay about this industry then of course I offer my sincere apologies to those who enjoy fantasizing...

Mick must have been one of the fortunate ones? Well actually quite a few lads were on this rate Carl, the norm after the first few Golden Months was around £325 per day. There were a few bad payers, even at the start. Global Risk for example supplied ex-Gurkha's, I think they were on something like $2000 per month, and their Brit supervisors/TL's were only on £195/225/250 if I remember correctly. The rates dropped from £400/500 mid 2003 to £325/295 mid 2004, to £220/195 2006/7 and some are on £150 with CRG at this moment.
 
Shakespeare, I thought about it and I think that there is a chance of success but whoever will be doing it needs to focus for now [in the begining] on the quite narrow group of strictly CP SIA licenced operators, and mainly working within UK or on international contracts but only those staffed in UK in my humble opinion.
Let me explain why I think so, as I see few reasons:

Risks, or what we shouldn't be touching just now:
- security guards, door supervisors, surveillance contractors, and other SIA licenced proffessions not always have the same goals and the gradation of important things for such a different groups may be very different so bringing up common action plan may be a hard task,
- there is 130 000 people with valid Security Guard licence, if we would like our new group/union/association have anything to say within any sector I recon we should represent at least about 30% or more of all licenced employees which makes it an enormous number to recruit in this situation,
- very similar situation with Door Supervisors, there is about 105 000 people with valid DS licence, which leaves us with similar "numbers" problem like above
PLUS Door Supervisors are relatively well payed which will make them harder to recruit as they may not want to risk what they already have,
- both mentioned above groups, are relatively easy [both cost&timewise] to train to standards required by law, which gives employers easy options for staff replacement, also by recruiting abroad,
- in case of international especially HE contracts, first we would face a tough price competition from America, and then training standards, law requirements are significantly different, leaving all SIA licencing unimportant.

Another, separete and quite fresh danger for operatives is this practice of CP companies to employ SG and DS for RST jobs, as I understood this used to be where people were starting in CP sector, place where they can polish their skills and those shinning ones are being picked for promotion, now this new stituation leaves us [newcomers, I'm talikng in my private case now] with massive problem of having nowhere to start or accepting those infamous 6ph wages.

Opportunities, or why CP world:
- relatively low number of SIA licenced operators, makes it easier to organize a group and gather majority of people on this market,
- extensive networking withing this sector gives us an excelent opportunity that the message will spread quick and as the group will be addressing problems important to everybody on this market I'd hope highly positive response,
- training to the SIA required standards in this sector is few times more expensive than in any other security sector and lasts much longer which makes it harder to achieve, so human resources are relatively limited, and sitation is indeed similar to the one mentioned by you [divers], so chances of negotiating or even "enforcing" some changes are quite high.
However! Due to growing number of new training companies offering; low cost, uder 2 weeks, "high standard" courses this may soon rapidly change so it seems like it's now or never ;)
- I agree with suggestions that instead of using name Union, we should rather think about "Association in favour of improving qualification standards within industry" [or something like that], because it would give us a good reason to ask for more [wages] in return of higher quals. of approved operators or companies.

Well that would be all, just my 2 cents, few ideas hope we will be on the same page
 
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I would support a union 100%.But their is always someone who will work for less.Doorman and sg badge holders all cover rst so this will be easy to cover.
 
Gents...just something I have picked up during the posting of these threads is the previous rate of pay in Iraq...

Perhaps i could ask anyone who was on £400 or £500 a day to post that info on here or to me by PM?

Unless of course you were on Paul Bremmer's CP team in Baghdad then...and yes we all knew that you guys were raking in on average £16,000 a month...

If there is anyone out there that was earning over generally £250 a day with no leave payments or as little as £135 a day with paid leave (During 2003, 2004 and 2005) then I would like to know please, purely out of interest guys.

This request excludes Oil industry techs etc who we knew (clients of mine) were on an average of £1000 a day...Yes guys £1000 a day...

Thanks gents...
Carl, I joined the circuit in 99 direct from Govt service.. I worked the celeb/arab/exec track like most guys did till the iraq 'goldrush' hit... And yes, I went out with it.. And yes I was earning £400-£600 a day... That said Iwas earning £200-£250 a day in the UK, so it didn't seem that unreasonable...

Shakey
I did watch the money drop over the years and I'm afraid the only people who are responsible is ourselves! Undercutting is everwhere in this industry.. We have to stop blaming the client and look at our selves.. I left the circuit about 3 years ago but still have friends out there and frankly the money they are earining is appalling (that said I am thinking about returning)

I'm currently 'Head of Asset Protection' for a Group and part of that role is maintaining the security of company execs... So, I ask 3 or 4 companies to tender to take an exec to say China... Its hardly my fault, as the client, if they want to keep under cutting each other its their problem not mine... In fact if it helps me preserve my budget, great! As long as operational efficancy is maintained I'm happy!

In closing although I would support a union, I don't see it would solve the issue.. I feel enough companies/operators would remain happy to continue the disgraceful undercutting the is part of the security industry culture!
 
I'm currently 'Head of Asset Protection' for a Group and part of that role is maintaining the security of company execs... So, I ask 3 or 4 companies to tender to take an exec to say China... Its hardly my fault, as the client, if they want to keep under cutting each other its their problem not mine... In fact if it helps me preserve my budget, great! As long as operational efficancy is maintained I'm happy!

Hippy...thanks for your reply and quite frankly mate in my experience of commercial dealings? it is as they say: "Just Business"

There will always be a competitive market in any industry...that's it! there is no other formula to Business. That is how it works...

Therefore, and as you quite eloquently state, quote "it is not your problem". At the end of the day you will buy your service (BENEFIT) as we say in industry, at the best price ensuring as a buyer of course, that quality is not compromised.

Carry on buying mate....



 
The current exchange rate for the dollar is 192.something, which is great if you are changing your pounds to dollars not so great if you have just been paid in dollars and want it in shiney english pennies (sorry to depress anyone out in the pit with that!!)
 
Like many others mate I invested in Dinars (wasted effort)... Sterling and the Dollar are of course a joke so I suppose it'll have to be Sheckles? Can you make it £10 Bro...I have to feed the kids!
 
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Actually no Carl... good point on the dinar thing.... how many of us have fallen for that from the early days in the pit??? Guilty I am afraid!!!
 
Close Protection and RST pay scales.




Formation of a Close Protection Trade Union




This industry has collapsed fairly recently, mostly due to lads/girls taking any job at any price. This is affecting the whole Close Protection market and as a result employers are reducing rates at an alarming rate. Pay scales are now almost at the same level as 2000 and destined to decrease to a level below uniformed manned guarding roles by the end of 2009. In fact, some CP/RST roles actually pay less than manned guarding badge security positions in London. Let me go through the following facts with you and see if we can come up with a solution. Bear with me...


In 1999/2000 the STANDARD DAILY RATE:


RST - £125 PLUS ACCOMM PROVIDED.
CP - £150 PLUS ACCOMM PROVIDED.


APPROX 400 CPS IN UK TOTAL




In 2008 the STANDARD DAILY RATE:


RST - £125/130 NO ACCOMM
CP - £150/75 NO ACCOMM


APPROX 5000 CPS IN TOTAL


What is wrong with this picture and why has it happened?


A number of contributing factors have lead to RST and CP wages being on par with London uniformed security guards. (Oh, BTW, they didn't pay for a CP course, just a quick manned guarding badge...think about this for a while...I'll come back to it later)


These are some reasons why wages have fallen dramatically:


  • A huge exodus of lads/girls from the forces into private security chasing the “cash cow” (the cow died a year ago)
  • A huge number of Training companies appearing overnight, catering for the need to qualify new CP's. Some companies have been established for years and produce very good operators, some extract the Michael and promise “Madonna and shades work if you train with them”. I will name and shame these bad training providers at a later date, why not? They've destroyed our industry. They are churning out operators with extremely bad skills at a horrific rate.
  • An agreement between certain training providers and recruiters. Here is an example of what would happen in 2000 and now in 2008:
2000:
You approach the end of your course with one of only 3 companies in the UK. Employers come to see the students, selects the students they require, £1000 per student handed over to training company by employer as “finders fee”.Resullt: training company happy, student happy to be working, Client happy with skill set and professionalism of student. Win Win situation for all involved. Oh, BTW, the training was completely on a different level to what is being churned out of some “All classroom/no practical drills” schools (you know who you are.)


And now in 2008:
You approach the end of your course, you have been promised work,......course finishes.....no work......waiting....waiting.....Ah ha! Job offer....”I've got a position for you, it'll help you get a foot on the ladder...its 12 hours a day at £9 or 10 p/hour, no travel allowance, no food or accommodation, no congestion charge or parking paid for, its in London Belgravia...OK?”, maybe you think to yourself "what a waste of £3000 for a course and 3 weeks of your time for £110/120 per day." Look on Gumtree and everywhere else, you can earn more than that sitting at a security reception somewhere. Think about it. But what do you do? You take it because you think you have no choice...catch 22 experience problem, the employers have you by the short and curlies, and they know it. Trust me on that.


Working for free/ less money than everyone else? OK, I've argued this before so I won't cover the same ground twice, but basically this is what is happening to the unwary:
From an employers prospective: You work for free, they still invoice the Client £250/300/500 per day, extra easy profit for them, so they think...hmmm, lets get more of these mugs on board.
What do you do? Go to a training provider with this proposition: “You persuade your lads/girls to work for me for free for 2 or 3 weeks after they finish their course, we'll give you 50% of what the lad/girl would've earnt” Training provider then tells the students “Right, why not offer your services for free for a limited time so employers can see how good you are? Your time with the company “x” will also give you experience and a chance to network....blah blah blah.” The employer is impressed due to the fact that a certain company has undercut everyone else and is providing labour at an alarmingly cheap rate. Training providers profit increases, Employers costs decrease, operator gets screwed sideways.
Is the penny dropping for those of you who have taken this route? I'm sorry if you have been duped, but why should you provide a “professional service” for free? You are upsetting the market extremely quickly.


  • Iraq/Afghan and other hostile areas: believe me, the days of £400/500 per day are truly over. Some companies are paying £150/175 for PSD work, and plenty of operators are willing to work for this rate. If you are not happy working for this rate and putting your life on the line everyday, the employer has a list of 1000's of people who will. This “Hostile” rate is also due to keep dropping over the next 12/24 months. Fact. Of course, companies will respond to this and blame the slow down blah blah. Profit is profit, and achieving maximum profit at the sacrifice of operators on the ground to appease shareholders is all part of the course for them.
If we think outside of the box, sit down and realise what is happening to our industry we have limited routes we can take. Damage control is now the order of the day. These are my proposals:


  1. Do not offer your services for free, or for less than the market rate just so you can get a “start”.
  2. Do not accept work for less money than the average security guard who has had little or no training.
  3. If a training provider offers you work “for free” through one of their “preferred” employers do not accept it, inform us on this forum.
  4. Form a Close Protection trade union.
Close Protection Trade Union.







I have looked into this and have come up with an idea. I am not a militant tree hugger by the way, I'm trying to see a way of rescuing our industry and achieving “professional wages for a professional service.” I'm sure many of you agree with me, who wouldn't want a better salary?


Now, let me give you a fairly recent scenario.


I will use UK offshore commercial divers as an example (bear with me here). They suffered the same fate we are experiencing now. Their wages were dire, but they were putting their lives at risk everyday and of course there were some fatalities. The problem was, they were self employed contractors (such as ourselves), didn't have a voice (such as ourselves), wouldn't stick together and some where quite happy to work for peanuts as “I just want to pay the mortgage and don't want any hassle”.


Well, this is what happened. In mid 2000, their average wages were around £165/185 a day. A lad had an idea and approached an umbrella Union, the union worked on their behalf and hey presto, a result!


This was the result for ALL N.Sea Commercial diver:
Wages increased for commercial N. Sea divers from approx. £165 per day to around £300 minimum. Those with extra hazardous duties (such as saturation divers) wages were increased from £225 to over £600 - £1000 per day. Fact.
Also, paid for travelling time, a daily allowance for health, dental AND holiday pay.
This has been enforced and a memo is sent to every diving company every year with the minimum pay scales and conditions set in stone. The employers have no choice and cannot offer the lads/girls any less than the union scale and conditions. This was achieved even though the lads were all self employed, worked for numerous different companies and were told “No chance, it can't work” Sound familiar? Well its happened, and it's working well. Working conditions, health and safety and numerous other benefits were achieved in a matter of months and the lads are as happy as pigs in warm brown stuff.


If we got together under an existing “umbrella union”, one with tremendous clout, I'm sure we could sort this mess out fairly quickly. If the Umbrella Union is unable to assist, then I will form one and take it from there. I am not going to sit back and watch this collapse happen any longer. It's time we stuck together and were paid fairly for our services.


Also, regarding training...this really need to be sorted out. Just because someone can get you to pass the SIA exam by teaching the minimum standards means absolutely nothing to many of us. I bow to the providers out there who stick to the old school methods and actually take their students beyond the minimum standards set by the SIA and show them the professional way in which our work should be carried out. This Union could sort out this area too.


Wages:


These should be intensely negotiated. A standard minimum daily rate of £250/350 for UK work is what I am aiming at, and a minimum Hostile rate of £350/450. Employers may say “we can't afford it” (such as they did to the divers) – but it doesn't matter, the Client will have to pay. If the Client wishes to employ a company to provide him/her with personal protection then that Client should be expected to pay the minimum professional rate.


This is totally within our grasp and can be put into motion within weeks.


Who would be interested in a Close Protection Trade Union offering a rapid and total revamp of our industry?


Let me know what you think.

Regards

Shakes.

We are in discussions and have had full backing and support. I will post full details later in the weeks as certain queries are ironed out. Suffice to say, many employers have actually looked at this as a good way to whittle the wheat from the chaff, and therefore increase the average wages for operators on the ground. A huge surprise indeed for all concerned. Formation of the Close Protection trade union, with full major union support will be announced in the press, industry magazines and a bulletin to all Close Protection comapnies operating within the United Kingdom. Financial backing has also been provided to launch the union at number one in Google, Yahoo etc rankings for all keywords relating to the Cp industry. To have not have heard of the union after launch would be a surprise.
Transripts of all meetings and a new industry standard will be available to view on the union website upon launch.

The oldeth school doth taketh the reins again.

Regards

Shakespeare
 
Transcripts of all meetings and a new industry standard will be available to view on the union website upon launch.

The oldeth school doth taketh the reins again.

Regards

Shakespeare

Good news Shakespeare and I am glad you have added a new standard. It is this that will be your strength not the battle for more pay alone.

I look forward to more updates regarding this.

Regards

Nomad
 
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