CP and RST Pay Scales/ New Rates proposed.

Nomad said:
Good news Shakespeare and I am glad you have added a new standard. It is this that will be your strength not the battle for more pay alone.

I look forward to more updates regarding this.

Regards

Nomad
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Thankyou for your support. It seems others though, are starting to chump at the bit with fustration due to their "how dare you go ahead with this" attitude.

Carl, do you really think that this forum is the only way to contact fellow CP's? How about other forums, databases etc?

Do you really think a journalist is going to respond to your request when advertising "in confidence" from a client has been booked?

Carl, you are a rope instructer and ex RAF regiment. I have not met you. Never. However there are plenty on here whom I have. Many do not seem to have heard of you, nor in fact have they met you....

You are trying to sound intelligent and are annoyed I haven't consulted YOU on this matter....Why should I? You don't have our operators concerns at heart...you seem to only try and plug your company with every post you place on this forum, unlike myself I may add. (looking at your post above, it is quite obvious don't you think?) You are beginning to irrate like a hungry African Mossi, and as you know a good fat mossi needs a good fat slap.

As I said before, at the start of this thread, that I expected some employers to come on here and defend the reasons why not to have a union, and my credability....well done Carl, "we can see clearly now the rain has gone" shall we say?

Oh, and don't bother with the old symathy vote: "I don't have many years left in this industry, I have 34 years experience etc etc." You might influence the new lads, but it doesn't wash with the old school mate.

Your other arguement against me on another thread about rates of pay in Iraq (2003/04) and accussing everyone of "fantasising" certainly proved you wrong when others responded. I thought that may teach you that just because "you" don't experience something, it doesn't mean everyone else is full of warm brown stuff, does it? But alas, you persist in your petty unintelligent arguements.


Good day to you old bean, ta ta!

Shakespeare

PS Mods, how about having a word regarding his obvious blatant advertising in LARGE print etc etc on every post he makes?
 
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Personally, would sign up for a Union, although have always personally thought it a waste of time, post Maggie days and I wouldn't vote Labour if you paid me!

If it happens, I'm in, being a training provider, I'd love to assure students their money is well spent and there's a min wage etc etc.
 
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Isnt this thread becoming a bit childish.

Could we all grow up.

I support the theory of a union but in reality my clients wouldnt. I go where they go. If I have a job for in UK that I can pay £350 PD I will and as we speak I do. If a job that comes in for a static guy and the pay rate ends up at £120 do I refuse it on moral grounds? sorry no I dont. Its where the new guys cut their teeth. The old fashioned way from the bottom up. They thank you for the opportunity.

And can the respected gentlemen take their bitching and personal swipes somewhere else. This forum is respected because there is now slagging or petty sniping generally allowed. to have 2 of the most prolfic posters behaving like children hardly does the rest of us any favours.

Here endeth the lesson ! :)
 
Back to the real issues. A standard above SIA requirements seems to be the norm for most reputable training providers. Unfortunately we have the case of any tom dick or harry opening a classroom based school and undercutting everyone else. I do believe a new standard would help. New "overnight" schools will go/be forced out of business, therefore starting to address the supply problem. Controlled supply= controlled wages/standards. As I said before, we need to return to "who trained you?" and not "have you got a badge?" Many employers are actually starting along this route as they have had enough of shoddy operators.
 
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praetorian550 said:
Isnt this thread becoming a bit childish.

Could we all grow up.

I support the theory of a union but in reality my clients wouldnt. I go where they go. If I have a job for in UK that I can pay £350 PD I will and as we speak I do. If a job that comes in for a static guy and the pay rate ends up at £120 do I refuse it on moral grounds? sorry no I dont. Its where the new guys cut their teeth. The old fashioned way from the bottom up. They thank you for the opportunity.

And can the respected gentlemen take their bitching and personal swipes somewhere else. This forum is respected because there is now slagging or petty sniping generally allowed. to have 2 of the most prolfic posters behaving like children hardly does the rest of us any favours.

Here endeth the lesson ! :)
Click to expand...

Absolutely. But I need to point out that using an arguement to simply plug a persons own company is a little wearisome? Maybe they should be paying for advertising space and therefore help promote the site?
 
Carl Dowd said:
Shakespeare...is that all you have mate? I'm disappointed and there is me thinking that we were having a grown debate about the issue of Unions, further outside influence on this industry and representation?

Hmm... obviously mistaken

Response due soon...

ATB

Carl
(You'll note, No sign off because that matter has been dealt with, you obviously missed the post and my apology to the site Sponsors and Advertisers)
Click to expand...

It's easy to miss something when somebody's spamming the same post in 5 different places of forum within 5min's...
 
Er, can we all take a deep breath before a mod locks this thread...

It is an important issue and therefore lets not trivalise it by descending into personal arguements.. One of the reasons this forum stands head and shoulders against other similar sites is there is very little of this type of behaviour on here.. Come on guys... Deep breath.. play nice!
 
praetorian550 said:
Isnt this thread becoming a bit childish.

Could we all grow up.

I support the theory of a union but in reality my clients wouldnt. I go where they go. If I have a job for in UK that I can pay £350 PD I will and as we speak I do. If a job that comes in for a static guy and the pay rate ends up at £120 do I refuse it on moral grounds? sorry no I dont. Its where the new guys cut their teeth. The old fashioned way from the bottom up. They thank you for the opportunity.

And can the respected gentlemen take their bitching and personal swipes somewhere else. This forum is respected because there is now slagging or petty sniping generally allowed. to have 2 of the most prolfic posters behaving like children hardly does the rest of us any favours.

Here endeth the lesson ! :)
Click to expand...

Thanks for your PM Praetorian.... I see that someone has removed my original question to you however, I appreciate your response regarding your first line...

By the way we are discussing here a very important issue to this industry, bigger I might add, than the involvement of the Government and the SIA...
 
Well Shakespeare I’m a little disappointed... For a man (or perhaps you are a woman, of course I have no idea) that freely engages with the Thespian tongue, I really thought that you could have done a lot better than that particular post.
I feel that the post would have been better served if it attempted to ‘counter the argument’.

That’s what true discussion and debate is all about. Of course I recognise only to well the ‘pattern’ here.

So let’s go through your personal onslaught shall we? And you of course notice Shakes that I am still here willing to discuss and debate the issue of Union involvement in this industry and the representation of this forum...

It’s a little unfortunate for you that unlike others who you have directed your sarcasm and quite frankly ‘abuse’ at? It hasn’t really affected me why? Because it’s an old tactic, ‘The best form of defence is attack’ a bit out dated but then quite frankly, you’re a lightweight...

In the political arena of discussion and debate I really am used to dealing with bruisers...Guys and Girls who really can land a punch not because of personal insults or an attempt at character assassination but because they deploy an intelligent thought process and are extremely well informed...It’s called Objectivity!

I trust that you won’t mind me using some of your comments as examples as to why? I and some others in this industry question Union involvement and then of course I have to correct some of your assertions about me.

I trust that the site owners shall grant me that opportunity as you have decided to personally attack my persona and background. I feel, and of course I have sought the opinion of others, that I have attempted to keep this debate purely ‘objective’ and I have only once asked you to show your hand due to your evasiveness in response to others.

Quote:
Thankyou for your support. It seems others though, are starting to chump at the bit with fustration due to their "how dare you go ahead with this" attitude.


What is actually happening here Shakespeare is someone and that someone is me, is challenging your perceived authority to take this industry into the clutches of the Unions. I have already made comment to you that I wish you well with this project but that comment isn’t a sign of weakness and neither is it a blank cheque for one individual to decide the fate of this industry.

Quote:
You are beginning to irrate like a hungry African Mossi, and as you know a good fat mossi needs a good fat slap.


So things have changed have they Shakespeare from 1972?
That is exactly the style of language used by the Union representatives back in the bad old days, then comes the threats, the intimidation and then finally when they do not get their own way the use of violence...

Quote:
You are trying to sound intelligent and are annoyed I haven't consulted YOU on this matter
I must confess and admit to trying to employ an intelligent thought process to discussion and debate and if you are uncomfortable with that then I can only apologise but as I have pointed out? I am used to dealing with people who can really land a punch (Metaphorically of course).

Quote:
Do you really think a journalist is going to respond to your request when advertising "in confidence" from a client has been booked?

No I don’t actually...but at the end of the day the press and the readership deserve a balanced view on this issue and as you are acting like a one man crusade, then at this moment in time it is the only tactic I can think of until your press release is published. Then, at that precise time...me and others if, I or they wish? Shall be able to respond.
Alternatively, may I suggest that you have your journalist or media Agent contact me or other members on the forum particularly, the site sponsors and advertisers direct and then perhaps along with other interested parties the journalist can gauge opinion and we can give an alternative view on the subject. See, simple...balanced!
But I’ll take this opportunity to remind you that I am a legitimate member of this forum, I have operated (and served) within Defence and Security for 34 years and YOU neither speak nor act on my behalf. I have funny feeling Shakes that may be a sentiment shared by a few others onthis forum.

Quote:
As I said before, at the start of this thread, that I expected some employers to come on here and defend the reasons why not to have a union, and my credability....well done Carl, "we can see clearly now the rain has gone" shall we say?


What? You think because you make a comment like that it is going to stifle discussion and debate? Are you insane? Do you think Shakespeare because you have a sharp and acidic tongue that you frighten people and that perhaps that is enough to stop them engaging in this issue?
Mate you have a lot to learn...

Quote:
Carl, you are a rope instructer and ex RAF regiment. I have not met you. Never. However there are plenty on here whom I have. Many do not seem to have heard of you, nor in fact have they met you....


And?
Your point is what? Exactly...
Are you under some illusion that anybody cares whether or not you have met or know me? I would suggest that what Forum members really care about is the issue. Is this what this industry is about now? Is this what this forum has become? Who you do or don’t know? You have to have worn a certain Beret to command respect? This comment compares with your previous threads where you seem to delight in exposing some form of weakness in others? Unfortunately here Shakes it has completely failed...You know I have this philosophy in life which goes something like this;

“If a person has no bearing on my life then their thoughts, comments and actions are completely irrelevant to meâ€

I regret to inform you that you fall into this category...

Also perhaps I could ask you to extend me the courtesy of at least familiarising yourself with the professional qualification that I actually hold in Mountaineering. The qualification of a ‘Ropes Instructor’ takes perhaps 2 weeks to attain... not unlike a CP qualification?

However, The Mountaineering Instructors Certificate which is the highest national qualification for the provision of all mountaineering instruction within the UK takes a minimum of 4 years to attain, with approximately 8 training and assessment courses, plus 4 day and advanced mountaineering first aid. It was once proposed for NVQ level 4/5 and many years ago, as a separate module towards a ‘Degree’ in Outdoor Education.

It requires experience and expertise coupled with immense personal performance to reach that standard. Some of my former students? Yes... Hereford, Poole, Chicksands, Sandhurst, Arbroath, Aldershot and Lympstone...to name but a few, I don’t believe that any of the mentioned enjoy working with non-performers...Do you?

Quote:
Oh, and don't bother with the old symathy vote: "I don't have many years left in this industry, I have 34 years experience etc etc." You might influence the new lads, but it doesn't wash with the old school mate.

This passage isn’t even worthy of a response.

Quote:
Your other arguement against me on another thread about rates of pay in Iraq (2003/04) and accussing everyone of "fantasising" certainly proved you wrong when others responded. I thought that may teach you that just because "you" don't experience something, it doesn't mean everyone else is full of warm brown stuff, does it? But alas, you persist in your petty unintelligent arguements.
Iraq/Afghan and other hostile areas: believe me, the days of £400/500 per day are truly over.

Argument? I thought we were engaged in discussion... and I notice you use the plural ‘Others’ I actually received one, yes just one response to a request from an operator who was able to inform me that he was in receipt of £400 or £500 a day, in which I thanked the contributor for! It was a fact finder...but out of approximately 16,000 guys operating in the private sector in Iraq and a membership it is claimed here of 3800... It was one guy ...that’s all.

So...to summarise, it is my firm belief that when involved in an issue such as this and the personal attacks come into play coupled with perhaps an attempt at character assassination? Then! I’ll let you judge how that looks.

In addition, your comments on me signing off are founded I concede on that issue, I responded to the moderator very quickly and I made a mistake, and I have apologised for it.

However, I have and shall continue to help individual members with some advice, sponsorship and visits to exclusive military establishments where possible...I am sure that there are one or two that would give testament to that.

I think also that you have made reference to me not being CP licensed? Mate...that’s no secret , ask the SIA... Speak to the former acting Chief Executive, he is fully aware of my intentions, refer to some threads on here. What does not being licensed do exactly? It diminishes my intellect because I do not have a piece of paper? It lessens my ability to engage with others on general or specific topics in this forum?

As for this debate? Well, you see I’m a political animal and a seasoned campaigner on many issues so... I’ll be there each day as a legitimate member of this forum to question, challenge or support when I think it is necessary and of course I will not be excluding your posts, because I like to treat everyone the same!

You can throw all the abuse you like...you can character assassinate until the cows come home...It will have absolutely no effect on me whatsoever... Remember I am used to dealing with those that can really land a punch? (Metaphorically of course).

Footnote...from this point I will no longer enter into a debate on personal issues and from here on in will deal with the pertinent points of the thread only.
 
Guys,

Not being funny or anything but I believe Shakes has a valid point and a very interesting idea. If for instance the backing was received from the necessary channels to implement a union type organisation then I believe standards will also be affected but in the right direction. The fact of Shakes not wishing to mention his background is his God damn right and the argument of 'he is acting in the best interests of the industry or his company' wears a little thin.

I produced a comprehensive critique report to the Home Office, Cabinet Office and Parliamentary Under-Secretary of the Security Industry Authority and their stipulated operational skills and training standards for a Close Protection Operative in the United Kingdom. I was subsequently requested to sit on a Government advisory panel for Close Protection operational and training standards within the United Kingdom and authored the Close Protection National Occupational Standards Review Report 2008. At no time has anyone asked for my background in detail or mentioned anything of the sort.

CP is a business to companies, training or operational. The SIA licensing was detrimentally affected by them approaching for information and advice from these commercial companies. My point here is that CP is not necessarily in the best interest for companies and for the most part they are interested solely in commercial gain, either profit or climbing the ever proverbial ladder of association with either the SIA or Skills For Security. In this instance, I strongly believe that Shakes is acting in the best interests of the industry. His idea is indeed interesting, one that is worth pursuing and one that I fully support. Attacking his professionalism and reasoning for pursuing this venture on the lack of his background information is not conducive to the effort and to be honest wears a little thin. It opens up the gates and discredits the reputation of the very companies you work for. Commercial CP training and operational companies still have a 'bums on seats' work ethics. Profit is the key. They have damaged the National Occupational Standards and badly affected the Accreditation of Prior Learning. This may sound harsh but in my eyes, all companies are tarred with the same brush whether guilty or not and until they provide some proactive uselfulness to this industry in support of raising the mediocre standards of the SIA without constantly pursuing the profit margin then they will remain a business and nothing more.

Lets keep this forum professional. Heated discussion is good but I have a tendancy to support Shakes in what he says.

Rich H
 
Carl Dowd said:
Footnote...from this point I will no longer enter into a debate on personal issues and from here on in will deal with the pertinent points of the thread only.
Click to expand...


Good. Lets keep this professional and on track. Everyone is entitled to different views, but to attack someones credability (or a suggestion of) as you did at the outset on various threads is not conductive.


Your views have been noted Carl, but do not reflect the majority of CP's who wish to see our industry transformed to pre-SIA standards and conditions.
 
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Thank you for deciding to keep on track with your discussions. It was detracting from the real topic which is of course is of keen interest to most.

Now the sabre rattling is over, lets see how this idea can be either moved forward or modified to help all.

Regards

Nomad

P.S. It has also saved me from locking the thread
 
Hi All,

Very intresting thread which is certianly getting peoples blood pressure raised, What i'm about to say is my own personal opinons & views.

firstly, very good idea, perhaps people are getting excited about the idea of a union & not an association or federation (similar to the police), but that can be ironed out in the future.

Secondly, if we were attached/affiliated to a blanket union would we be required to come out on strike with the other members of that union?

Thirdly, the main problem with the SIA is they have no operational experience within the security industry, that is one of the major gripes about them, how can we be assured that a blanket union would be able to assist us in bringing the industry to the high standard it deserves, if they are not security based?

This is a huge industry, so when you take in to account the DS, SG, CCTV, Cash in transit, US & possibly the surv guys later on that is a lot of possible votes for someone to count on!

Like i said, just my own thoughts

James Mc
 
An employers perspective

It can be argued that "labour is a commodity, and unions essentially operate by centralizing labor, forming a monopoly on the commodity. This monopoly on labor has the same negative effects as any other monopoly; of reducing the amount sold raising the price in the short term and decreasing efficiency."[1]

In order to survive in the market employers must provide a cost efficient and effective service according to supply consumer demands. A free market economy is a pre requisite for a healthy business forum with the market dictating the criterion.

As is often the case 'cheap' never results in 'quality' and it is demonstrative that a business based on strong, professional and responsible practices will endure againt a sub standard service.

Employee/employer disputes over pay and conditions should always be resolved at a personal level without any need for arbitary interference from an outside source. A responsible employer has a duty of honour to his staff, and a responsible employee has a duty of loyalty to his employer.

Summarily, competion in the free market economy is always good for business, as it seperates the wheat from the chaff. The formation and existance of trade unions encourage nothing but contempt and distrust between team members.

[1] Baird. C, "Unions and Antitrust: Governmental Hypocrisy." The Freeman, Vol. 50 No. 2. Foundation for Economic Education, New York.





On a lighter note


 Shakespeare quote

 You are beginning to irrate like a hungry African Mossi, and as you know a good fat mossi needs a good fat slap.

End quote


The largest species of the family Culicidae is the Toxrrhychiites speciosus, with a geographical range limited to New South Wales and Queensland.

Although large in size(16 mm and weighing 2.5 mg), T. speciosus is not a parasitic haematophyte..............unlike a certain Marxist agitator.





 
Wow what a debate! some serious emotions going on, but as always one word seems to come out 'PROFESSIONAL' weather being professional, acting professional, professional company, professional operator etc etc etc.

thats what it comes down to the ones with the most passion about our chosen career path also get the most fustrated when we see it going TU.

One thing to remember is that the SIA licencing is still very much in its infancy and as with any new policy there will always be those who will do there best to make as much out of it as they can before it settles, but in the end only the professionals will remain.

On the whole union issue my personal experiance with unions leaves a very bitter taste, (just cant get the image of fat union rep telling me I couldnt use the canteen when doing agency work on leave because 'I wernt int union').

also had to deal with striking security staff some years ago, which lead to the undercutters getting some of our business.

As someone who has in the past needed to recruit CPO's and will need to in my next position personally if I see the word union CV will be file 13.

professional association YES professional trade organisation YES, UNION wrong word if not right intentions,
To many of my generation now in senior management still remember the Arther Skargil days.

Which ever way it goes I wish all those professionals out there good luck with the passion of there pursuits.

Be safe
 
Quote Carl:
However, I have and shall continue to help individual members with some advice, sponsorship and visits to exclusive military establishments where possible...I am sure that there are one or two that would give testament to that.

From my point of view some very helpfull advice and info received. Thank you Carl.

Shakes;
........and forgive me if this sounds contrary; I think you have the making of an idea that deserves some real thinking and debating, which is shown by the level of support shown. For certain 200%, this IS something that needs to be brought out in the open and discussed, not just on this forum but nationwide as an industry.

I think the "security industry" (I inc DS, MG, CCTV, CPO's etc etc) are underpaid and under valued, and enough is enough; and for that reason I would love to see a blanket "union" take on the mantel for ALL within the indusrty; wow what a voice that would be?!

That said; I fear and agree with others on here that rolling it out accross the whole industry whould be a huge nigh-on impossible task, but that doing it accross the whole industry might be the only way it could feasably work; also that the use of the word "union", meant in whatever way will only have a bad effect on the larger issue - for reasons others have already gone into.

I wish the concept all the very best, and thouroghly look forward to hearing the discussion continue as other have their say.

ATB, Chris
 
My pleasure Rupet and may I wish you all the best with your new and chosen career. If I can be of any further assistance then, you know how to contact me.
 
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