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Carrying a torch when working.............

Howardk

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#41
Thank you for your answer, Rhea. And I do plan on visiting someday. Will feel naked without my guns and knives though:)

Now, me being a cop I have to be mindful not to use excessive force. Hitting people in the head with a MAglite is considered deadly force if I do it to someone, but if they do it to me it's not considered deadly force. Makes no sense but dems the rules. Cops are held to a higher standard and are supposed to be more clear thinking and in better self control.

This "offensive weapon" moniker still has me baffled. There must be a huge review panel deciding whats offensive, what's a weapon, and when it becomes such. Makes my head hurt. In the states its a Maglite....until it's used otherwise. We aren't tasked with predicting what's in a person's heart and mind. We deal with the facts as they unfold.
 

rhea

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#42
Quick question then.
So reasonable force can at times allow you to use a massive torch as a bat round someones head.

But would the judge/legal bods later come back and say "you have been found not guilty of excessive use of force, but you will be charged with carrying an offensive weapon" .....as there was no legal reason to carry the torch up to the point of its useage as a beater
It would have to be some sort of exceptional fight if you have to resort to battering someone round the head but I can just about see some circumstances where it could be reasonable.

As for the second part a torch is a bloody torch even if it is a 6 cell mag and until the person carrying decides that they are going to turn it into a weapon then it will remain a torch.

Obviously if a fool puts it on everyday with the intention of using it as a baton and goes around bragging that fact or tells plod that is why they carry such a "big one" then I can see them being asked "their name for the tape".
 

rhea

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#43
This "offensive weapon" moniker still has me baffled. There must be a huge review panel deciding whats offensive, what's a weapon, and when it becomes such. Makes my head hurt. In the states its a Maglite....until it's used otherwise. We aren't tasked with predicting what's in a person's heart and mind. We deal with the facts as they unfold.
Don't be baffled it is exactly the same here.
And I do plan on visiting someday. Will feel naked without my guns and knives though:)
You could always bring your dog:D But don't worry we can get a special CCTV camera to keep an eye on you:D
 

Pyrene

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#45
This "offensive weapon" moniker still has me baffled. There must be a huge review panel deciding whats offensive, what's a weapon, and when it becomes such. Makes my head hurt. In the states its a Maglite....until it's used otherwise. We aren't tasked with predicting what's in a person's heart and mind. We deal with the facts as they unfold.

Well its the three classes of weapons again, made, adapted and intentional.
The first two are really obvious to anyone if it is or isnt a weapon. If a cop stops you and finds a 9mm on you, then its clearly a weapon as its purpose is for killing. If a cop stops you and finds you are carrying a zip gun, then its clearly a weapon as it only really got on purpose.
But if you get stopped because you are carrying a baseball bat or a torch longer than your arm, then its initally up to the arresting officer to decide what it is, is it a weapon or not, as you already know, been a copper yourself, it would come down to situation, intel, deminar and attitude of person (etc etc). If he decides it is a weapon, then it would go to the people in wigs in the lovely court room to argue between themselves.
 

K9medic

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#46
In that situation, I would suspect that if the “large torch†in question is in a recharging point on the wall for use by fire marshals (I do like the nice red colour Mag-light use, then every one knows its for fire safety not security use) or its in your own home, then it would be hard to prove you intended to use it as a weapon.
 

4Front

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#47
Quick question then.
So reasonable force can at times allow you to use a massive torch as a bat round someones head.

But would the judge/legal bods later come back and say "you have been found not guilty of excessive use of force, but you will be charged with carrying an offensive weapon" .....as there was no legal reason to carry the torch up to the point of its useage as a beater
To bat someone around the head with anything unless it was potentially life threatening not to do so would be unreasonable and a disproportionate amount of force as a likely outcome of being batted around the head could be death. liking this thread a lot.
 

Pyrene

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#48
To bat someone around the head with anything unless it was potentially life threatening not to do so would be unreasonable and a disproportionate amount of force as a likely outcome of being batted around the head could be death. liking this thread a lot.
thanks for explaining reasonable force which I know very well already :p
I was trying to determine if carrage of item was legal.
I carry a 6D cell and I get stopped on the doors at 2300 and arrested for offensive weapon
What if they the copper didnt show up and I used the 6d at 2330. At 2330 it became legal for me to carry/use, but 10 seconds before it would still be illegal, could you be charged with having an offensive weapon in your possetion prior to inccident
 

K9medic

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#49
Unfortunately at that stage a lot will depend on the Police officer in question and whether he got a “table ender†from his lass before he left for work or not.

If he is in a good mood, and your club / you don’t have a bad reputation then if the torch is on a shelf or in a recharging clip, then it shouldnt be a problem. However if the club or you have a bad reputation, and your carrying a 6 cell on your belt, if he is in a bad mood you may be asked some questions.

Sadly it at this stage it is not really about right or wrong (that could be left up to the magistrate), but rather what the officer in question suspects. If he suspects you intend to use it as a weapon, and the fact it is a very long metal torch is just an excuse to carry it, then it could just add more weight to the case against you.

You all so need to consider your employers policy on this one too, after all it is their reputation (read income) on the line as well.

But at the end of the day why risk it, when there are better options than a couple of pounds of aluminium swinging on your belt all night. Let’s be honest long shifts on a door are uncomfortable anyway, why add to it.
 
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TMAC

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#50
I wonder how many ways there are to say "Don't carry a 6D maglite around, just in case", before someone takes the hint?
 

littlewoman

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#52
Why would you get arrested?

When did this ever happen?
If you read the whole post, you'll see he's asking a question, at what point does it become an offensive weapon. Can there be a situation where it is not considered to be an offensive weapon at one point but then you get charged with possession of an offensive weapon after you have used it as a weapon?

I would suggest that as it depends on intention, it would be down to proof and its hard to prove something that is in your head. You're unlikely to get arrested for possession of an offensive weapon for such an item, but if you use it as a weapon (even with reasonable force) then you might get charged with possession of an offensive weapon because you've just made it easier for the police to prove their case. As has been said a lot would depend on the officer.
 

billy1000

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#53
Been a while since I last posted.
Merseyside Police are in the process of (or about to start) providing torches to DS in Liverpool city centre which are fitted with a filter that highlights traces of coke when shone on someones face.
 

rhea

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#54
If you read the whole post, you'll see he's asking a question
I get that LW and I am sure he can answer my question for himself if you would just let him and there is a possibility he may learn something. The answer you posted is no different to what has already been said but I suppose repeating it again will have the desired effect:rolleyes:
 

rhea

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#55
Merseyside Police are in the process of (or about to start) providing torches to DS in Liverpool city centre which are fitted with a filter that highlights traces of coke when shone on someones face.
Are you saying it only detects "coke"?:confused:
 

ed

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#56
im not 100% on this but doesnt all ulterviolet lights show up COKE

if i remember right that is i know it does with pink champainits because of the effort on coke and phet mixed


like i said if i remember right its been awhile

ed

p.s also i carry a touch when working i always carry one but its a mini mag and not some big arse 100 million candle bollocks like some retards.
 
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scruff

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#58
I know its an old thread but i thought i would shove my nose in. I would say it depends on where you are working i dont think ds should carry a 6 cell torch and can see the many reasons why not. my sia instructor has said at best use a small pen type especially at festivals events. on the other hand I was doing hospital security years ago on 12 hour nights alone i dealt with many violent situations one notably was a guy trying to get into a mother and baby unit pissed at 2am with a knife to see his estranged wife i had no hesitation in swiping his wrist till he dropped it by the way there was no time for customer service skills at the time lol, I also had the backing of the local police as I had established a good working relationship with them over time and they respected me for working alone i had no choice i was a bit green back then I wouldnt do it know but the industry has tightened up on lone working regulations apparently?
 
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