Carrying a torch when working.............

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doorstaff28

Full Registered User
Many doorstaff carry a torch on them whilist working, it might come in handy, maybe they are walking home late and it comes in handy then... but what happens if a fight kicked off and they used it to strike with? would it then be an offensive weapon?? or classed as carrying something with the intention to harm someone??

thanks in advance........:)
 
Hint - Go to any good bookstore (Waterstones etc) and look in the law section for a big thick book called 'Butterworths'. Then look up 'instant arming'..
 
As a security guard I always carry a torch. I would have thought that in your business it would be an essential bit of kit. For example, if all power is cut, or a fire breaks out a torch is essential to name but two examples. Where do you get the offensive bit? Just make sure the torch is not dual-hatted!
 
depending on the situation, level of threat, exhaustion of all reasonable efforts, then it should probably fall under the instantly armed reasoning.
a 6 x D cell maglite might be frowned upon, but a reasonable sized torch with a defender ring should slide by.
was your response reasonable and measured.
along with a good robust torch, you will need the number of a good solicitor. (try Kaim Todner in the city)
 
It would be up to you to convince the police, and then maybe a magistrate that the force you used was "reasonable in the circumstances,"
Carrying a torch is fine obviously, but carrying it with the sole intention of using it as a weapon is not.
Think of the drug dealer with a baseball bat in his car.... I would be arresting every time, even if he tried to tell me he was in the local rounders club......
Its all down to common sense really mate...
 
There was a case some years back where a guard got convicted for carrying an offensive weapon after hitting an intruder with it. It was judged reasonable force but the fact that it was 10am and the guard's duties would not involve going any where dark and so had no reason for having a torch meant they must be carrying it as a weapon.

It will be an offensive weapon if it it "made, adapted or intended to cause harm", whether the force is reasonable is a different offence (ie. assault, ABH etc.) So if you have a Surefire Defender Torch with a strike bezel then you've got problems. I can also see the 6D cell maglights needing some explaining. But if your duties take you somewhere dark then you can carry a torch. If you have good reason to use it as a weapon and its force is proportionate, reasonable in the circumstances etc. then that's still OK, it can be classed as instant arming.
 
littlewoman said:
There was a case some years back where a guard got convicted for carrying an offensive weapon after hitting an intruder with it. It was judged reasonable force but the fact that it was 10am and the guard's duties would not involve going any where dark and so had no reason for having a torch meant they must be carrying it as a weapon.

It will be an offensive weapon if it it "made, adapted or intended to cause harm", whether the force is reasonable is a different offence (ie. assault, ABH etc.) So if you have a Surefire Defender Torch with a strike bezel then you've got problems. I can also see the 6D cell maglights needing some explaining. But if your duties take you somewhere dark then you can carry a torch. If you have good reason to use it as a weapon and its force is proportionate, reasonable in the circumstances etc. then that's still OK, it can be classed as instant arming.
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I'd have made them go to the book shop :)
 
Buy a decent torch, I used to carry a maglite until I decided to try a smaller 'tactical flashlight' as I wanted to ditch the Batman belt. Best thing I ever did, my maglite is now gathering dust. Stumbling across someone onsite after dark I shone 210 lumens in their eyes, they were pretty much blinded and the threat to myself was drastically reduced, and no risk of assault charges.
 
I'd echoe what Sabre said above, you can get a far more powerful and efficient torch at half the size of a maglite, so a 6 cell Mag is only really worth having as a club and as your noty allowed to use it as such its pretty redundant.

The cops I know used to have maglites but GMP replaced them with LED Lenser torches (at 1/3 the size) as the coppers were using the torches instead of batons to clout people, they were then calling it a last act of desperation as they feared for their safety and couldn't get to the baton in time and therefore had less paperwork and a convincing argument if it got to court. Quite clever really and worked for a period.

A lad on a complex I used to work on always carried a 6cell maglite, one night he ended up hitting someone with it and the police quite rightly threw the book at him. He was a prat anyway, it was well before SIA, he got over 12months jail if I remember correctly. Tht was probably 12-13years ago but this thread reminded me of it.

My advice is get a torch by all means but keep it small and bright and don't hit anyone with it unless its life and death
 
A quick note here and I do stand to be corrected, perhaps any medics can help; during my medical training i remember someone telling me that the light emitted from 'maglite' (and other similiar) torches, has a damaging effect if shone directly into a person's eyes. Something to watch out for, maybe be aware of. Have I quoted my trainer correctly?
 
Des said:
A quick note here and I do stand to be corrected, perhaps any medics can help; during my medical training i remember someone telling me that the light emitted from 'maglite' (and other similiar) torches, has a damaging effect if shone directly into a person's eyes. Something to watch out for, maybe be aware of. Have I quoted my trainer correctly?
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I would think that if it was shone into a persons eyes for any length of time it might, but not for a second. If you just use it to momentarily dazzle someone you should be fine. If you pin them down and do the "We have ways of making you talk" thing then you've got problems. If generally just trying to illuminate someone then aim it at their lower body making sure there is enough light that you can see the rest of them. Its only if the beam is shining directly at their eyes that it might cause harm.
 
I just started at a new venue, my company took over the door a few weeks ago. Previous company lost it because they used a mag lite to attack someone, using it as a base ball bat (so the reports say)


Look at things practically.
You may need to search property/belongings, you may need to see your way home or find something. That is a purpose of a torch. Typically the bigger the torch the brighter. So you want to get yourself a big torch (lets go for a 6d cell mag) however, these days a torch small enough to fit in your hand is brighter than any mag. I myself used LED Lenser MT7. So therefor carrying an oversize torch is now pointless. The realistically reason for carriage is self defence.

Also, consider this. Police can ask "why do you need such a powerful torch?" searching a bag can be done by a small 2AA cell mag, searching dance floors again by same torch. There is no reasonable need for carrying anything of any weight or size, except for the reasons of self defence.

Try learning martial arts/defence technique
Try getting trained in Red Web

I echo what sabre said "Buy a decent torch, I used to carry a maglite until I decided to try a smaller 'tactical flashlight' as I wanted to ditch the Batman belt. Best thing I ever did, my maglite is now gathering dust. Stumbling across someone onsite after dark I shone 210 lumens in their eyes, they were pretty much blinded and the threat to myself was drastically reduced, and no risk of assault charges."
 
doorstaff28 said:
Many doorstaff carry a torch on them whilist working, it might come in handy, maybe they are walking home late and it comes in handy then... but what happens if a fight kicked off and they used it to strike with? would it then be an offensive weapon?? or classed as carrying something with the intention to harm someone??

thanks in advance........:)
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28,

I have a small surefire torch for seeing in dark places,
and my own capabilities for everything else.
makes the legal minefield a bit easier to navigate.

regards

premier
 
Des said:
A quick note here and I do stand to be corrected, perhaps any medics can help; during my medical training i remember someone telling me that the light emitted from 'maglite' (and other similiar) torches, has a damaging effect if shone directly into a person's eyes. Something to watch out for, maybe be aware of. Have I quoted my trainer correctly?
Click to expand...

This is ludicrous. We are trained to shine a Mag lite into a persons eyes to disorientate and gain an advantage over a subject. Can't believe that's even a concern. Any kind of assault or battery on me and my Mag lite is swinging. I'm not waiting till I think I'm gonna die before using it. At that point it may be too late.
 
Thanks for your comment but you do not state, or cannot state, that the light emitted from a maglite may damage a person's eyes. Just because you are trained this way does not make it right. Damaging a person's eyes should be a concern, particularly in this world where everyone sues for everything. If you have the right connections, I don't, please ask your medical friends if what I say is correct. Taking it to the extreme of being killed at this particular stage is taking it too far, what I am trying to establish is whether the light can damage eyes. This information could prevent you being sued. Without prejudice! cheers
 
Ok, been in first aid for 30 odd years (25 as a trainer) and have never seen a reliable source of information on the damage torches could do to the human eye. This is in relation to hand held torches, rather than search lights like the old Dragon (personal experience I was that fool seeing starts for 10 minutes) or laser pointers.

I asked a couple of my techno torch collecting acquaintances (did you know there are forums for torch collectors CandlePowerForums - The Front Page ) they think a momentary flash in the eyes, for example to disorientate an attacker, is highly unlikely to cause permant damage with the average hand held torch.

As one said, if you accidentally look at the sun, you blink and turn away (the sort of reaction we are looking for). If you taped someone’s eyes open and shone a light in them, especially blue LED, then yes it would cause damage. Though apparently it is not as simple as the number of LUMs. But then if you did this you might have some explaining to do.
 
Des said:
Thanks for your comment but you do not state, or cannot state, that the light emitted from a maglite may damage a person's eyes. Just because you are trained this way does not make it right. Damaging a person's eyes should be a concern, particularly in this world where everyone sues for everything. If you have the right connections, I don't, please ask your medical friends if what I say is correct. Taking it to the extreme of being killed at this particular stage is taking it too far, what I am trying to establish is whether the light can damage eyes. This information could prevent you being sued. Without prejudice! cheers
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They're just as sue happy here as they are there. If shining a light in someone's eyes were to cause damage I'm sure we wouldn't be formally trained to do it. Next thing you know we won't be able to take mug shots with flash photography. Thank you K9Medic for bringing your experience into this. You're probably not a doctor but I'll take your word for it.
 
I dont really think that many on this thread know what they are talking about, it would make no difference if i carried a 6 cell maglite or a smaller torch, if part of my job is to search bags, evacuate the premises if the power goes off, and walk home where not every street is greatly lit up, then i can carry any size torch i like.... if the size of the torch was unessacery why would maglite sell them that size? if, in theory i am attacked at work, or on the way home, the fact that i have a torch and used it to defend myself is perfectly correct, i am not carrying it with the intention of causing harm, it is not offensive or illegal otherwise shops would not stock it, and it is not adapted to cause undue injury......... so explaining why my torch is so big doesnt come into it, i bought it online and didnt check the measurements so i didnt realise how big the actual torch was til it arrived.... no court in the land can prove that someone buys it with the intent on causing harm!!!!!!!!!
 
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