SIA LICENCE Minded to Refuse?

Okay lets put this another way,the army particularly the tooth arm bits, are by there very nature aggressive,they wouldn't be a lot of use otherwise.A lot of us came from the estates, a lot of us had brushes with law while we grew up,and the army gave a lot of us a second chance unlike it would seem the SIA. Most of the army lads who are still serving or have recently left have spent the last decade in combat, providing if you like "close protection" for this sceptered isle of ours.It has changed all of us who have experienced it,some more than others and not always for the good.The guy who has had a scrap is not the one who would concern me,its the one one who has bottled it up because hes the one who will cause the most damage.

Now let me put a scenario to you, you are in Iraq and you have the choice between a lad who has fought on the ground, knows the ground and knows the social dynamics, but he had a scrap and rather than applying common sense the police cautioned him.The other lad has never been beyond Spanish Rivera,but hes done his 150 hours SIA training, who would you go with.

The SIA would save itself a lot of grief if they used the rehabilitation of offenders act,where a caution is immediately spent.

P
 
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right lets get summat right here,we prob all watch these police docs and see wot people do wrong who repeat offend and get a 50 quid ****ing fine.they are in and out of court.you are judging somebody who has been dun once with the same brush as that ****ing twats who are in and out of court,that is a load of bollocks.so stop going on abt this lad with 1 conviction for ****s sake.you people who are going on about him make him sound like he should be hung at dawn
 
I would like to point out in my PLT was only 7 of us who did not have a criminal record . I had them watch my back and would gladly do so again. not sayin i would lend them money like lol
 
I want to give a hope to some people that I had one caution from police and less than 2 years old,Sia asked for mitigation and i sent three references along my personal mitigation and Now i got my sia licence back from minded to refuse status.
 
So all the old 'Quality' doormen, who lost their jobs and knew all about the street, knew about their area, knew all about the clubs.
It's alright for them to be fcuked off, and told go and clean a fcuking toilet some where.
But all you military men, who can't tell the difference between a war zone and the high street in down town, Midsomer are to be excused.
Have I got that right, or am I waaay off the mark.
 
I was in a boozer in Chichester not so long ago and a mash up between two lads started and they gave each other a good pasting.

There was three DS working, they all stood round looking worried until Plod showed up.

There was some old-skool DS required that day.

No doubt the boys, and they were boys, had sat through they're conflict resolution training but they couldn't stop a lot of young ladies from being scared.

I'd take an seasoned DS, either a long term pro or a lad who's spent his years in the arse end of Helmland, above these cats. Regardless of wether they had a minor conviction. Each case must surely be on merit.
 
Oddjob said:
So all the old 'Quality' doormen, who lost their jobs and knew all about the street, knew about their area, knew all about the clubs.
It's alright for them to be fcuked off, and told go and clean a fcuking toilet some where.
But all you military men, who can't tell the difference between a war zone and the high street in down town, Midsomer are to be excused.
Have I got that right, or am I waaay off the mark.
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Guess you are referring to 'quality' as the old school lot who had their licenses refused because of criminal records and stuff? To some extend I am glad they are got rid of - my experience of working along side some old school geezers is right in the negative, constantly looking for fights, grabbing people round the neck - left me to leave a very high paying job because I was genuinely worried that plod would show up and slap cuffs on us all.

But on the flip side, some of these 'quality' doormen are quality and should have the badge, should be in work still, but as said previously the SIA only care if anything appears on your CRB. Realistically they have no idea who you are or anything about you. Put yourself in their shoes, you get a CRB from someone and they call up saying they are actually a good bloke - do you believe them? I wouldn't.


I do agree with everything you've said there OJ, but see it from the SIA point of view. They are like traffic wardens - need to justify their existence. when they first came around, if they didn't block out all what they would class as 'undesirables' then the SIA wouldn't be around for long.
 
fckn straight blokes on here mate........... just listen to them!!!!

ffs you make me sick, id love to sit in front of you and get your pretentious cv's out and ill stand there and laugh in your faces. this lad made a mistake and has paid the price and for 80% of you straight blokes to be slating him like this is a disgrace.

real men will stand there and be counted when the rounds fly and if carrying the can with a court appearance is a result of it the so be it. not about where you stand in moments of comfort and convenience but where you stand in times of challenge and controversy. this lad is not a nonce, peadophile, rapist etc etc hes an ex royal marine looking for a break

you straight blokes looking down from your ivory fckn tower giving it x y z about him not being able to control himself blah blah blah, have a word with yersen. id rather be stood with a MAN than a straight bloke whos arse has just fell out because he hasnt the morale fibre to react to a situation without pulling his fckn manual out his shitty arse pocket to refer to. ive met your kind before with your silly gps watches at weddings telling tall tales of grandeur after a few cans of skoll

unless you have nothing positive to say to help the lad, shut your silly faces! cos one day youll be pleased to find a man like him watching your back. it says more about your personality slating him like this.........

rant over, off to watch lesbian porn. more b0llo x on there ffs
 
scottymac said:
I was in a boozer in Chichester not so long ago and a mash up between two lads started and they gave each other a good pasting.

There was three DS working, they all stood round looking worried until Plod showed up.

There was some old-skool DS required that day.

No doubt the boys, and they were boys, had sat through they're conflict resolution training but they couldn't stop a lot of young ladies from being scared.

I'd take an seasoned DS, either a long term pro or a lad who's spent his years in the arse end of Helmland, above these cats. Regardless of wether they had a minor conviction. Each case must surely be on merit.
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Spot on mate....... this is exactly how it should be! wait for the straight bloke answers.... batton down.
 
bullcantona7 said:
fckn straight blokes on here mate........... just listen to them!!!!

ffs you make me sick, id love to sit in front of you and get your pretentious cv's out and ill stand there and laugh in your faces. this lad made a mistake and has paid the price and for 80% of you straight blokes to be slating him like this is a disgrace.

real men will stand there and be counted when the rounds fly and if carrying the can with a court appearance is a result of it the so be it. not about where you stand in moments of comfort and convenience but where you stand in times of challenge and controversy. this lad is not a nonce, peadophile, rapist etc etc hes an ex royal marine looking for a break

you straight blokes looking down from your ivory fckn tower giving it x y z about him not being able to control himself blah blah blah, have a word with yersen. id rather be stood with a MAN than a straight bloke whos arse has just fell out because he hasnt the morale fibre to react to a situation without pulling his fckn manual out his shitty arse pocket to refer to. ive met your kind before with your silly gps watches at weddings telling tall tales of grandeur after a few cans of skoll

unless you have nothing positive to say to help the lad, shut your silly faces! cos one day youll be pleased to find a man like him watching your back. it says more about your personality slating him like this.........

rant over, off to watch lesbian porn. more b0llo x on there ffs
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calm down, calm down, step back a bit and stop being so defensive..

i think people on here have helped - he has said his circumstance and he has answers. Whatever your opinion maybe, whatever my opinion maybe, what ever anyones opinion maybe - opinion doesn't work for the SIA, "do they have a mark on the CRB....yes...right no SIA" simple

Just because this lad is a squaddie means naff all. What correlation does been in the forces have with been on the doors (or CP, except HE). Forces you are trained to kill and use a gun. Now, I havnt been in the forces, but I doubt that you get trained to deal with a bunch of boozed up lads out on a stag that just want to have more drink and touch the pole dancers.

Just because your forces does not give you a get out of jail free card, do whatever the heck you want ID card that you flash to anyone that gets in your way. - there are a hell of a lot of forces out there that believe this though, when working the Army & Navy games at Twickenham - the amount of squaddies which believe they can go into restricted areas, smuggle things in, break all the rules and their excuse "I fight for my country, what do you do"


Because someone hasn't got a criminal record doesn't mean they are perfectly straight or naff at their job. Yes there are thousands out there which always 'refer to the manual' the rest of us don't need to, and then you have the other lot - they just havnt been caught yet.
 
I personally think that the ideal DS of today is a hybrid of old and new. Most of the DS out there today are completely spineless and would benefit some of the bottle of a propper old school lad. However I have worked with some old school Lads who were unprofessional and bully's. A mix of the old and new is what's required.
But on the subject of the SIA they are a complete joke!
 
dannywayoflife said:
I personally think that the ideal DS of today is a hybrid of old and new. Most of the DS out there today are completely spineless and would benefit some of the bottle of a propper old school lad. However I have worked with some old school Lads who were unprofessional and bully's. A mix of the old and new is what's required.
But on the subject of the SIA they are a complete joke!
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A lot are indeed spineless wimps that won't get stuck in when needed. I was doing doors couple of weeks ago with this gent who openly admitted to me that the days of getting involved are past him - did I feel safe...no, it was a 2 man door as well.

To many people shoved over from the job centre
 
The SIA have a set criteria for issuing licenses. If you fail to meet that criteria then you have right of appeal. Simples really.

In regards to us Old school DS (Bouncers ) we did not flinch when trouble came calling. Many times uninvited but faced and dealt with in the appropriate manner when our version, at that time of conflict management came to naught.

Work a 1 man man door in the local shithole estates where you have to earn respect by dealing with the thugs,bully's and dealers you have been brought in to exclude or ban. No comms then lads or CCTV (Tango Victor) oppo or close cover to help out. Just a well positioned lead filled bat and a set of dusters for when it kicks off. Any back up might as well be on the chuffing moon, because when it gets ugly ....real ugly... your on your own, full stop.

Making sure your bladder/bowel was empty, clip on straight, shoes laced up tight and your persona projected towards all as steady, calm and resolute as a storm battered cliff face before the start of a nights work. Knowing what to say when to say it and to whom without being patronising or antagonistic was a skill in itself. Maintaing a firm but polite presence of authority a pre requisite for all. Getting turned over was a part of the job as turning tail was never an option. If you could not hack it you were gone ..period.

I wonder how many new DS walk the line, getting rid of the crap before it makes it to your door. Place suitable oppos on various vantage points whilst maintaining 'line of sight'. Visually sweep the area like a metronome. Check the med kit, comms, venue integrity, notes on recent events, liase with managers on issues nightly. Observe all and everything coming to yours or other bars in your AO. Maintaining contact with the local Police, council or other managers and their staff. Making a recce of the area before you start/finish work to see what and who is floating around. Give a team talk before and after each shift, noting events etc on the night. Advising staff on basic procedures in regards to venue/personal security when we have left. Cashing up and options on making cash runs safer etc. Also staff being chastised, followed or just plain stalked when an over eager punter has made them the focus of their unwanted attention. Not to mention standing too, with the other lads at other venues for a while after your shift. Just to let them know you are all in it together. The self pride from knowing you are providing a service that makes you and your team stand out. A fitting tribute for your employer and the venue and staff, punters alike who frequent it.

I could go on all day.....
But what the Fook do I know, I am just an 'Old school DS' who knows FA about mixing my skillsets into a modern enviroment. As for 'feeling safe'. That is just an illusion, that can disappear in a heartbeat when you fall under its spell.

max
 
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maximuszx12 said:
The SIA have a set criteria for issuing licenses. If you fail to meet that criteria then you have right of appeal. Simples really.

In regards to us Old school DS (Bouncers ) we did not flinch when trouble came calling. Many times uninvited but faced and dealt with in the appropriate manner when our version, at that time of conflict management came to naught.

Work a 1 man man door in the local shithole estates where you have to earn respect by dealing with the thugs,bully's and dealers you have been brought in to exclude or ban. No comms then lads or CCTV (Tango Victor) oppo or close cover to help out. Just a well positioned lead filled bat and a set of dusters for when it kicks off. Any back up might as well be on the chuffing moon, because when it gets ugly ....real ugly... your on your own, full stop.

Making sure your bladder/bowel was empty, clip on straight, shoes laced up tight and your persona projected towards all as steady, calm and resolute as a storm battered cliff face before the start of a nights work. Knowing what to say when to say it and to whom without being patronising or antagonistic was a skill in itself. Maintaing a firm but polite presence of authority a pre requisite for all. Getting turned over was a part of the job as turning tail was never an option. If you could not hack it you were gone ..period.

I wonder how many new DS walk the line, getting rid of the crap before it makes it to your door. Place suitable oppos on various vantage points whilst maintaining 'line of sight'. Visually sweep the area like a metronome. Check the med kit, comms, venue integrity, notes on recent events, liase with managers on issues nightly. Observe all and everything coming to yours or other bars in your AO. Maintaining contact with the local Police, council or other managers and their staff. Making a recce of the area before you start/finish work to see what and who is floating around. Give a team talk before and after each shift, noting events etc on the night. Advising staff on basic procedures in regards to venue/personal security when we have left. Cashing up and options on making cash runs safer etc. Also staff being chastised, followed or just plain stalked when an over eager punter has made them the focus of their unwanted attention. Not to mention standing too, with the other lads at other venues for a while after your shift. Just to let them know you are all in it together. The self pride from knowing you are providing a service that makes you and your team stand out. A fitting tribute for your employer and the venue and staff, punters alike who frequent it.

I could go on all day.....
But what the Fook do I know, I am just an 'Old school DS' who knows FA about mixing my skillsets into a modern enviroment. As for 'feeling safe'. That is just an illusion, that can disappear in a heartbeat when you fall under its spell.

max
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But is it only the 'bouncers' who do this? Why can't the new lot be able to do this? correct training, finding a door where they will train you on the job, find a good door - not a scummy half arsed one. Not all the new SIA lot are as pathetic as you may think. I think you are looking at a selection and applying it to the hole. Those lads on the doors who wear a crap pair of shoes and complain after 2 hours, naff presentation and no understanding of human nature - need to be stamped out. The 'old school' lot were being born years ago, people with pride in how they look (occasionally) people with a certain attitude, they will always be born and get the job. Just because the SIA has come around does not mean that people are no longer the same, it just means they are restricted a little by what they can do

And is keeping that baseball bat and alike the correct thing to do? No I believe it isn't, the correct thing to do is not accept the job in the first place. I have no problems with getting stuck in, usually one of the first in, but accepting a job where you know you will meet that sort of violence is not a show of bravery, not smart, not big, but silly.



Regards the feeling safe - i did not mean it in the sense of 'nothing will happen' but more as 'he's got my back' when we are talking - he's got his eyes behind me watching whats going on, not looking me in the face and paying no attention to everything else in the room
 
A bit harsh really i am an ILEX Trainee lawyer now but also have a CP license, and spent 12yrs in the army very one makes mistake and the CP is world is full of them 40-50% of CPO'S have had prior convictions.

Christ SIA is full of mistakes physical testing and mental health is just a few non tested clauses with SIA their just take peoples world for it that their ok. The of the disabilites act, should be waived in certain jobs like CPO'S as it costs lifes of people you worked with because of unveted checks from the SIA, their is hundruds of loose cannons in operating in as CPO'S would you want to work with them
 
Sharpshooter76 said:
A bit harsh really i am an ILEX Trainee lawyer now but also have a CP license, and spent 12yrs in the army very one makes mistake and the CP is world is full of them 40-50% of CPO'S have had prior convictions.
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where the hell do you get your figures from ?
40- 50% utter nonsense.
as a trainee lawyer you need to get some proof, or at least talk plausible sense.
And NO everyone doesn't make mistakes, that sounds like the excusenik talk of one past convicted.
Never had a conviction, and yet the fullest of lives in the job and out of it.
 
Sharpshooter76 said:
A bit harsh really i am an ILEX Trainee lawyer now but also have a CP license, and spent 12yrs in the army very one makes mistake and the CP is world is full of them 40-50% of CPO'S have had prior convictions.

Christ SIA is full of mistakes physical testing and mental health is just a few non tested clauses with SIA their just take peoples world for it that their ok. The of the disabilites act, should be waived in certain jobs like CPO'S as it costs lifes of people you worked with because of unveted checks from the SIA, their is hundruds of loose cannons in operating in as CPO'S would you want to work with them
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The Disability Act has nothing to do with people getting jobs who shouldn't have them. Its up to the employer to check that people only get jobs that they are capable of doing. The Disability Act does not say that you have to give people jobs regardless of any disability, only that you have to make reasonable provision for people with disabilities, if there is something that someone can't do because of a disability and that is an intrinsic part of the job, then you don't have to give them the job. It should also be noted that if their disability stops them doing things which are an intrinsic part of the training for the job that you don't have to let them qualify either.
 
Sharpshooter76 said:
A bit harsh really i am an ILEX Trainee lawyer now but also have a CP license, and spent 12yrs in the army very one makes mistake and the CP is world is full of them 40-50% of CPO'S have had prior convictions.

Christ SIA is full of mistakes physical testing and mental health is just a few non tested clauses with SIA their just take peoples world for it that their ok. The of the disabilites act, should be waived in certain jobs like CPO'S as it costs lifes of people you worked with because of unveted checks from the SIA, their is hundruds of loose cannons in operating in as CPO'S would you want to work with them
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No, not everyone makes mistakes, but some do. I don't know where you get the figure of 40-50% from but, if true, then it is a shadow on the profession and I doubt it anyway.

There are "loose cannons" in every walk of life, but being a loose cannon doesn't necessarily mean they have a conviction. It is not the SIA's role to assess someone's suitability past ticking boxes for the legal requirement. Assessing someone's suitability is the task of the employer so you cannon is pointing in the wrong direction
 
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