Take a caution or argue to court?

G

gymfreak1987

Full Registered User
Hi guys looking for a little unofficial advice. Iv been a full time DS now for coming up to 5 years and I had a little hiccup a few weeks ago.
Ejected a group of young lads from our outside smoking area for skinning up cannabis, without using any force I might add. They then became very mouthy and aggressive, one more then the others. Actually the little s***'s were so stupid they wouldn't even believe cannabis was considered to be drugs! Anyway...After continued verbal abuse (which I can normally take all day) he then continued to call my female colleague a c***. This for me was enough, I left the front door, moved at least 3 metres forward towards the guy, and he stepped up! He had very aggressive body language. So pre emptively I took him to the floor. But I maybe didn't realise how light he was and he went down hard, he cut the back of his head on the stones (club is actually on the beach). I restrained him for a second, shouted at him to go home and then released him. I didn't hit or choke (tempting as it was). As I walked straight back to the front door he attempted to blind side me but fortunately i saw it and moved, my colleague also pushed him away. He then called the police as he felt the "takedown" was excessive and unnecessary. Police attended and just took details at the time. They finally collected the CCTV from the bar this weekend. Iv seen the CCTV and its extremely clear and it does look like he goes down hard, not exactly a "controlled" takedown. So I have spoken to the police and they said once the CCTV has been analysed I will likely be brought in for questioning. They said as it is my first alleged offense I would more then likely be offered a caution. But should I take it? I wouldn't lose my badge (as far as I'm aware) on a single caution, but then I'm told it could remain on my criminal record for life?! Or should I argue it to court? If found guilty of probably "common assault" I could get worse and also lose my licence. The fact is I left the front door and approached him, he was at least 3 metres away so didn't constitute a physical threat. But I believe had I not acted in that way the consequences could have been worse as it could of turned into a full on "punch up". And when he stepped forwards I honestly believed he was going to headbutt me. Any advice would be great guys!
 
YOU WILL LOOSE YOUR BADGE IF YOU ACCEPT A CAUTION.
Apologies for shouting but even if the police or anyone else assures you that you won't - you will. You may get it back on appeal but that will take at least 3 months, then you'll also have to appeal to get your renewal when that comes around. Yes, it will be on your record for life, it will stop you getting other jobs or doing other activities. Lets say you want to help out with a local kids soccer team, or get a job in a hospital, you wont.

Lets get straight what you did in legal terms. By shouting abuse at your colleague he was committing an offence. Section 4 of the Public Order Act. Public Order Act 1986
He was continuing to commit that offence, not just shouting and walking off. You can use force to prevent crime, not just to arrest. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1967/58/section/3
You approached him to try to get him to stop shouting abuse, ie. in order to prevent the crime which was presumably distressing other people who were around. At that point his body language became aggressive and you felt in imminent danger. You took him to the ground in what you intended to be a controlled way. It is perfectly legal to pre-empt an attack and act accordingly to defend yourself. Unfortunately he went down faster than you expected, perhaps the drugs played a part in this, perhaps he slipped, perhaps it was just your misjudgement. But it was misjudgement, not an intention to hit his head on the ground. His later attempt to attack you as you were walking away also goes to show that you were likely to be right in thinking he was going to attack you before the take down. He can't claim it was justified in revenge as that is not a lawful excuse. The fact that you only dodged the attack and didn't respond with more force shows your level of control.

Finally, remember that the prosecution has to prove beyond reasonable doubt that your force was excessive.

Use the search box to search for the word "caution", or look through the legal and SIA sections for thread titled "Minded to refuse"
 
littlewoman said:
YOU WILL LOOSE YOUR BADGE IF YOU ACCEPT A CAUTION.
Apologies for shouting but even if the police or anyone else assures you that you won't - you will. You may get it back on appeal but that will take at least 3 months, then you'll also have to appeal to get your renewal when that comes around. Yes, it will be on your record for life, it will stop you getting other jobs or doing other activities. Lets say you want to help out with a local kids soccer team, or get a job in a hospital, you wont.

Lets get straight what you did in legal terms. By shouting abuse at your colleague he was committing an offence. Section 4 of the Public Order Act. Public Order Act 1986
He was continuing to commit that offence, not just shouting and walking off. You can use force to prevent crime, not just to arrest. Criminal Law Act 1967
You approached him to try to get him to stop shouting abuse, ie. in order to prevent the crime which was presumably distressing other people who were around. At that point his body language became aggressive and you felt in imminent danger. You took him to the ground in what you intended to be a controlled way. It is perfectly legal to pre-empt an attack and act accordingly to defend yourself. Unfortunately he went down faster than you expected, perhaps the drugs played a part in this, perhaps he slipped, perhaps it was just your misjudgement. But it was misjudgement, not an intention to hit his head on the ground. His later attempt to attack you as you were walking away also goes to show that you were likely to be right in thinking he was going to attack you before the take down. He can't claim it was justified in revenge as that is not a lawful excuse. The fact that you only dodged the attack and didn't respond with more force shows your level of control.

Finally, remember that the prosecution has to prove beyond reasonable doubt that your force was excessive.

Use the search box to search for the word "caution", or look through the legal and SIA sections for thread titled "Minded to refuse"
Click to expand...

Thank you so much! You have made my day! I will refuse a caution and argue it to court! It is annoying as I was planning to retire from the door in 2 weeks aswell! But I wan't to keep my license as something to fall back on. And definitely wouldn't want it to affect any future employment prospects. Thanks again!!!
 
Excellent advice Littlewoman. I think that pretty much sums up what you need to know. At the end of the day even if you take someone down really really hard, it doesn't matter. If you are using force in the first place legally, then that's it justified. Police injure people all the time taking then down. Unfortunately it's what happens when someone gets forced to the ground without use of their arms. It happened countless times when I was working doors but 99% of the time the police agreed with us. I almost got arrested for causing an injury while taking someone down once, he was substantially smaller than me, but I slipped on ice (true story) and he had my entire body weight pulling him down (was about 21st at the time, he was about 10st) cut his head quite badly! However luckily for me he spat in a police officers face as I was having my caution read, police didn't care after that and told me not to worry :)

If you can justify the take down (the reason for it, not how much force was used) the in my opinion I wouldn't be accepting a caution! You will lose your livelihood! And in my experience quite often a caution is offered when they know the CPS will drop the charges. If you go to court, definitely get a solicitor.

Exile
 
There is no rule in law to say that a person must wait to be struck first before they may defend themselves,
DO NOT accept the caution
 
Exile71 said:
Excellent advice Littlewoman. I think that pretty much sums up what you need to know. At the end of the day even if you take someone down really really hard, it doesn't matter. If you are using force in the first place legally, then that's it justified. Police injure people all the time taking then down. Unfortunately it's what happens when someone gets forced to the ground without use of their arms. It happened countless times when I was working doors but 99% of the time the police agreed with us. I almost got arrested for causing an injury while taking someone down once, he was substantially smaller than me, but I slipped on ice (true story) and he had my entire body weight pulling him down (was about 21st at the time, he was about 10st) cut his head quite badly! However luckily for me he spat in a police officers face as I was having my caution read, police didn't care after that and told me not to worry :)

If you can justify the take down (the reason for it, not how much force was used) the in my opinion I wouldn't be accepting a caution! You will lose your livelihood! And in my experience quite often a caution is offered when they know the CPS will drop the charges. If you go to court, definitely get a solicitor.

Exile
Click to expand...

You do have to justify the level of force used regardless of the legitimacy of using force. Just because you can justify using force doesn't mean you can use whatever force you want. Non-striking techniques are generally seen at the lower end of the force scale, but you still have to justify the level of force. However, it is very difficult to judge the exact level of force required to take someone down safely and in this case it was probably misjudged, but that misjudgement is perfectly understandable and does not show criminal intent.

I would be extremely surprised if this got to court.

Just out of interest were the drugs mentioned to police when they arrived and were the lads searched?
 
Thanks for the input guys, we had already confiscated a small amount of cannabis off them along with a grinder in the smoking area before ejecting them, this was sadly not clear on the CCTV but the cannabis was passed onto the police upon arrival. The police also put in their notes that the group of youths were being very abusive and disorderly when they were dealing with it so hopefully part of that statement will be made official and go in my favour.
 
How many times have we had this thread ?

Never, ever, take a caution. (especially in THIS industry.) It's an admission of guilt. Kiss goodbye to your license.

V
 
Good to see someone not only asking for advice but actually listening and thinking about the responses they have had
 
Gymfreak... I am unable to advise you because I have never worked the doors and never will I... but let me give you this piece of advice if I may? from an old dog who has been around the block a few times..! If this situation is that critical whereby, you think you may in the future risk future employment..? for f**k's sake get and see a legal mind, a brief!

Just an observation...

CD
 
Hi Gymfreak,

I agree do not accept a caution. Get a good solicitor and tell them what happened and it is clear you thought you were about to be assaulted. There is no such thing as unofficial advice so do not go into detail any further (except to your solicitor) as it is not helpful. Remember it is important to get a GOOD solicitor, there are crap ones. I doubt this will get past CPS to court.

Good luck.........Nippy
 
gymfreak1987 said:
Actually the little s***'s were so stupid they wouldn't even believe cannabis was considered to be drugs! Anyway...After continued verbal abuse (which I can normally take all day) he then continued to call my female colleague a c***. !
Click to expand...
Verbal abuse against a female or a minor under 16 is classed as aggravated assault if they feel threatened, they don't have to be physically assaulted just feel threatened and the police will take "aggravated assault" very seriously, report them for that if it goes any further, (it works)

Alan
 
Again thanks for all the input guys, I will 100% not accept a caution and go to court if it makes it that far! This thread has really put my mind at rest!
 
Ensue in your interview that you get across that you acted in a proportionate manner to the situation and that your initial action of taking the guy to the floor to prevent the situation escalating, in your opinion was the right thing to do at the time. You have not assaulted anyone so DO NOT give the cops an easy detection. Everything you say in your interview is what CPS will look at regarding whether to proceed to court. On the balance of probability and taking into account that the complainant was under the influence of drugs and alcohol CPS WILL NOT take the matter to court.
Stick to your guns on this one.
Hope it goes well pal.
Andy
 
Do not give any answers in your interview until you have a decent solicitor present.
Plain and simple.
analysis of the CCTV.
if that's the cops sum total of evidence and the word of a pot smoking drug abuser.
Tell them to go fcuk themselves (politely)
You were in a situation that had escelated from a request to desist smoking cannabis and leave the premises.
to a ramped up situation raising from mild threats to physical confrontation.
in your opinion, (I am guessing)
Their bravery/bravado was becoming more exciteable.
in your opinion in order to difuse the situation for the safety of your colleague, the law abiding punters and the general public your actions were the only safe course of action.
the take down was controlled taking into consideration that there was a possibility of the other aggressors making good their threats of harm and attack.
this was not a one on one confrontation, this was you against a threatening gang.
All they needed to do was walk away as instructed.
why not call the police. Well their response times are pitiful, and their general attitude towards you is less than professional, see yourselves as the criminals first.
Put the emphasis on the threat not just to you but members of the public and your colleagues.
Emphasis the continued escalating threat, by word and manner, emphasise your belief that violence by the group against you and your female colleague was but seconds away.
 
You havent been arrested and bailed pending the cctv have you...???
Police will have to get a statement from the so called victim thats if he is even bothered to give them one
They will try and offer you a caution as it will look good for their clear up rates REFUSE IT.
Call their bluff and go to court. The so called victim will need to appear at court and
give evidence under oath from the box. If hes a litle scroat then he wont want to give up
a day of lying in bed to go to court to sit about all day waiting to give evidence.
If the police speak to you about this in interview under caution but not under arrest then you are still entitled to a brief.
 
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