Please Help/ Baton

premier said:
Tap,

Good post pal, one thing I'd say re pocket note book, most of us have a smart phone or android phone these days and the digital dictation machine app is a favourite of mine, phones are multi tools as well as a means of making / receiving calls

Regards

premier


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Click to expand...

Premier,

The issue about phones is an entirely personal choice. Whenever I work, I have a basic, £10 phone on me, for emergency use only (ie calling police/company). My smartphone is locked in my kitbag, which is locked in the office. I don't want to take the risk of some little shit thinking he's a big man, throwing a punch or whatever, and smashing my phone, or even trying to steal it. To me, it's not worth the risk.

I always use a notepad and pen to jot everything down, simplest way. You could always get a dictaphone and record yourself (to be transferred into written notes later/if necessary), but then you've got to make sure that you're speaking clearly/low background noise, etc.

One of the options I've been thinking about indulging in is the digital pens that record all writing, so you can write something on a notepad, plug it into a computer, and it transfers your writing, by recording the pen movements, into a document.


I've seen DS using smartphones too often, and it's never "writing notes". In my personal opinion, you're not doing a very good job at a venue keeping an eye on what's going on if your head is looking straight down at your phone on FaceBook most of the night


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Lake,

I've worked doors all over the country for over 25 yrs now,
Not once have I lost damaged or had a mobile stolen...
And I don't piss about on the phone while working its on silent and in the pocket until it's needed,
I'm too old for Facebook

I have a note book and pens but the smart phone for me has it's place, it is a handy tool.
I can't take a photo with a note pad and I can't accidentally record every word and the tone a tosser is using at the door!!!

It is a shame when one of your members of staff, has a bullshit case dismissed from court,
with no further action because a phone had accidentally recorded threatening and abusive language towards them moments earlier!
Don't you think?

Now if we'd only of written a report there could of been a counter accusation, but luckily we had an accidental recording of the whole incident

As for the losing of phones I'm not to concerned as it has not happened to yet plus
I keep my retired smart phones, I replace my company handsets yearly and keep the old ones
(drives the mrs. mad but I have a kitchen cupboard full of them)

Regards

premier


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One of the problems to be aware of when using a smart phone or even a notebook is that what ever you produce in court to be reviewed by you is open to scrutiny. So if you have a notebook and take a rubber band and block off all the pages your not using and focus on just the notes you took then you have no problem. If you just refer to your notebook in general without blocking off everything then it becomes a part of evidence.

If you use a smart phone and documents then the defense can file for discovery to see the notes you have taken. if like most of us you have email, web site visits, pictures etc on your phone then all of those things can be viewed in court.

So if it's best for you to use your phone then it's a personal decision. I certainly can't say don't do it. The risk certainly outweigh the possible benefits. This is why I prefer the notebook. This is basic security and is often over looked. I still have notebooks from when I joined the police department in the USA that go back to 1984. Back before most people on this forum were born.

Regards

Tapmaster
 
tapmaster said:
One of the problems to be aware of when using a smart phone or even a notebook is that what ever you produce in court to be reviewed by you is open to scrutiny. So if you have a notebook and take a rubber band and block off all the pages your not using and focus on just the notes you took then you have no problem. If you just refer to your notebook in general without blocking off everything then it becomes a part of evidence.

If you use a smart phone and documents then the defense can file for discovery to see the notes you have taken. if like most of us you have email, web site visits, pictures etc on your phone then all of those things can be viewed in court.

So if it's best for you to use your phone then it's a personal decision. I certainly can't say don't do it. The risk certainly outweigh the possible benefits. This is why I prefer the notebook. This is basic security and is often over looked. I still have notebooks from when I joined the police department in the USA that go back to 1984. Back before most people on this forum were born.

Regards

Tapmaster
Click to expand...

to follow on from taps post

You are MEANT to have a pocket note book. This is a lined, with margin note book. It has numbers in every corner. You are MEANT to follow rules for the use of this PNB -

Erasures (no rubbing out)
Leafs (no pages taken out)
Blank spaces (block off everything)
Over writing (don't scribble out, one single line, initial it, write the word again)
Write between the lines (lines are there for a reason, don't write between them)
Speech (when quoting, use direct speech, e.g. he called me a "BASTARD" and followed up with "I WILL RAPE YOUR MUM", note the speech is in capitals). For some of you folk out there, you will recognise this as exactly the same as police PNB.

Realistically though, in over 7 years of been on doors, no one has ever demanded to see my pocket note book. And thankfully nothing has happened in which where I have attended court, they wanted my note book. However you have something which can go to court (which in this line of work….its not unheard of) they can and most likely will want to see your note book. Failure to produce this, then it questions your quality and suitability for a witness/statement giver. Following on from that, when things do happen, don't forget to fill out reports. I would say a good 99% of things inside clubs are not recorded properly on paperwork. It does actually bring down the credibility of the job
 
It's 21st century people.
Come on get with it.
Note book, incident report books are all well and good.
You can get down in writing how youvsaw and interpreted the situation.
But for bare bones evidence, a body cam has to be the way to go.
Multiple cams with audio is even better, as is being suggested for all police forces, and has to be the way forward.
I used and tested them nearly 10 years ago.
Deal with incidents in pairs (minimum) and the camera is your independent witness.
It also keeps your own exuberance in check.
But remember it's an independent witness first and foremost.
Notes and note taking is an art.
Invaluable if used properly, but real footage from numerous angles with audio can seal conviction.
Or dismiss a claim against you.
 
Oddjob said:
It's 21st century people.
Come on get with it.
Note book, incident report books are all well and good.
You can get down in writing how youvsaw and interpreted the situation.
But for bare bones evidence, a body cam has to be the way to go.
Multiple cams with audio is even better, as is being suggested for all police forces, and has to be the way forward.
I used and tested them nearly 10 years ago.
Deal with incidents in pairs (minimum) and the camera is your independent witness.
It also keeps your own exuberance in check.
But remember it's an independent witness first and foremost.
Notes and note taking is an art.
Invaluable if used properly, but real footage from numerous angles with audio can seal conviction.
Or dismiss a claim against you.
Click to expand...

or incriminate you ;)

Body cams are really good, but expensive, extra weight, not on target, hard to place, attract hostility.
 
Technology has certainly advanced far beyond what we could have imagined 25 years ago. One of the things I noticed about body camera's and tape recorders which we used when I was a police officer back in the days is that in some cases the tape either mysteriously disappeared or was turned off and turned back on or had a muffled sound. As a person will ultimately try to cover their tracks if they slip up. I've seen it happen many times in investigating police complaints.

The body camera's I have seen worn by some police officers and some security personnel. While I agree that we have to use the best technology to accomplish our work. I do however believe that nothing beats a notebook and a pen. If kept properly the notebook can be a savior or a curse if kept improperly.

Best Regards

Tapmaster
 
Pyrene said:
or incriminate you ;)

Body cams are really good, but expensive, extra weight, not on target, hard to place, attract hostility.
Click to expand...


Let's pull that apart then Mr Pyrene.
Really good,
yes indeed. They come in many shapes and forms, very overt, or less conspicuous such as the license holder cams. So many options, that choice is your biggest problem and most with great audio.
But expensive.
Really, the prices are as varied as the choice. £500 for a police grade cam is pennies in relation to what it accomplishes.
Extra weight.
Rubbish, even the heaviest is no more than a bottle of water.
A belt worn body with a remote wired lenses and Mic wouldn't't even be noticed after a week or two.
Not on target.
Blame the user, not the camera, most have a 120 degree lens, the audio will be just as big a saviour as the picture
i.e. no I did not racially abuse him, as you can hear from the audio, so he and his mates are liars.!!!!
With very little practise and fore thought even you could get the hang of it.
Hard to place.
We've been using them on SV tasks for decades with no problem.
The larger police ones come with mounting systems or purpose built vests, slings etc to securely mount them.
Attract hostility.
Again I think you confuse the user with the tool.
If anything I find they concentrate and control both the user and the subject.
A dirty great big Stop, Police, Action cam always seem to draw attention, but that's all lights and distance.
Working with film crews in any situation will bring lots of attention from people be they drunk or sober.
But a body worn cam is often spotted too late, long after the subject has incriminate themselves.
Those that are a little excitable will often calm down when asked to record their complaint to camera.
I still maintain its of greater value to the user for prosecution, control and a means of defending against the increasing number of spurious complaints levied at ourselves.
Especially for those who really can't write up decent, useable and fully explained notes.
It's a great support tool. In the process of ordering 2x B-Cam SRUs for a central London door.
And all this from a self declared luddite.



.
 
£500 not so cheap if you are a self employed person trying to survive in private security. Also companies don't like spending pennies on getting you a new tie, ask for a £500 camera and you could be laughed out the office.

My personal experience with body cameras.
Started with a small covert one, did the job great, quality was poor and it was attached to clothing, so if clothing moved/buckled, then camera off track

Then had a body box, this attaches to radio loop or chest pocket, sorta area. Big box, attracted hostility towards it, heavy (not heavy heavy, but noticeable that it pulls your shirt or coat to one side), never faced right direction.

Body body with a rig, Camera is attached to a rig and points straight forward out of a rig, got in the way with an altercation. Also when trying to go for a piss, blocked my line of sight.

Head cam, un comfortable, however best one I've used, did attract a lot of comments though from people "its robo cop"


With body cams though, I wonder if anyone can answer a question. I've been trying to find out the answer, but everyone seems to come up blank. Lets say we have a head cam, and start interviewing on the street, mg11 or such like, there you have a documented audio recording of question and answer. Does this neglect the need for writing up the report later? Anything for prosecutions at the moment has to be written up, so the recording I presume at the moment can only be used as a supporting document. question then, do i have to keep writing...
 
All police interviews are audio recorded as minimum, you still do a written report. It isn't necessarily a full transcript but you should be prepared for that as it very often happens depending on not guilty plea, severity of offence etc.
 
Most evidence and records are in the written form.
They always have been and will remain so.
Easy to copy and disseminate.
But a visual/audio record is irrefutable.
The best support to any statement you can make.
One makes the other, proof perfect.
No real room for dispute to my mind.

Popping back to body worn cams (just for you Pyrene)
Sounds like you've had some bad experiences to date.
Cameras can range in price from £50 upwards. They are not all £500+
How cameras are worn is vital.
Heavy bodied units need the appropriate mounts.
Smaller remote lenses can be worn on lighter fabrics and more covertly, but still need mounting properly.
As with all equipment, it needs practise and adjustment.
We should learn from our mistakes and others mistakes or we are born to fail otherwise.
Who ever provided your body cams should have advised and instructed you.
To my mind it's the users (not you touchy) and seldom the equipment at fault.
And if you think the cams create aggression, remember they also record it.
If a little old camera recording the truth is enough to make people aggressive, then they need dealing with long before the focus of their ire is cast onto a innocent.
Better you get the bollox rather than some incapable, unprepared, untrained and unpaid civilian.
Have a word with Vis and co they'll put you right on the best cam and how to wear/use them.
Some of the roles you've had could be covered by the VideoBadge in one form or another quite easily.
As long as it is positioned on the right mount for the material.
And cams worn by multiple users just seals the deal for me.
Remembering my holy trinity approach to conflict management of Talker, Walker and Watcher.
Should give you a signed, sealed, delivered result to all conflict re evidence.
Think about how all those bad experiences could be replayed and improved.
Our briefings and debriefs are meant to be time well spent dissecting and resolving issues.
Hope we''ve done That with regards to supporting the note book with video/audio evidence.
 
Just noticed the original post was on batons.
How the hell did we get to note books.
Is it 'The Pen is Mightier than the Sword'.
Must have a full reread.
 
Oddjob said:
Most evidence and records are in the written form.
They always have been and will remain so.
Easy to copy and disseminate.
But a visual/audio record is irrefutable.
The best support to any statement you can make.
One makes the other, proof perfect.
No real room for dispute to my mind.

Popping back to body worn cams (just for you Pyrene)
Sounds like you've had some bad experiences to date.
Cameras can range in price from £50 upwards. They are not all £500+
How cameras are worn is vital.
Heavy bodied units need the appropriate mounts.
Smaller remote lenses can be worn on lighter fabrics and more covertly, but still need mounting properly.
As with all equipment, it needs practise and adjustment.
We should learn from our mistakes and others mistakes or we are born to fail otherwise.
Who ever provided your body cams should have advised and instructed you.
To my mind it's the users (not you touchy) and seldom the equipment at fault.
And if you think the cams create aggression, remember they also record it.
If a little old camera recording the truth is enough to make people aggressive, then they need dealing with long before the focus of their ire is cast onto a innocent.
Better you get the bollox rather than some incapable, unprepared, untrained and unpaid civilian.
Have a word with Vis and co they'll put you right on the best cam and how to wear/use them.
Some of the roles you've had could be covered by the VideoBadge in one form or another quite easily.
As long as it is positioned on the right mount for the material.
And cams worn by multiple users just seals the deal for me.
Remembering my holy trinity approach to conflict management of Talker, Walker and Watcher.
Should give you a signed, sealed, delivered result to all conflict re evidence.
Think about how all those bad experiences could be replayed and improved.
Our briefings and debriefs are meant to be time well spent dissecting and resolving issues.
Hope we''ve done That with regards to supporting the note book with video/audio evidence.
Click to expand...


The video card stuff, I have recently looked into these as I saw a 'civil enforcement officer' wearing one. Rather interested in this, they do look rather good. We have 2 head cams on our patch, I'm trying to put forward to have these video cards. However despite been a company which gets loads and loads of money, they aren't interested in spending on things that they consider are not totally a requirement
 
OJ

I have to fall on the sword for turning this into a discussion on documentation. I feel that documentation, giving statements etc are crucial matters. For the most basic task let alone striking someone with a baton. I'm not a fan of a baton or handcuffs for civilian use. Just my opinion that's not worth a 2p coin.

Tapmaster
 
If you could carry just one thing, for me it would be rigid cuffs, rigid cuffs make all the difference in the world when dealing with violent people. Platicuffs are a waste of time.
 
RD I agree about rigid cuffs. I remember the old days of having two or three links between the cuffs. I don't like plasticuffs either. It was the big craze back in the days. I prefer to have the rigid or hinged cuff as we called them in the states.

Regards

Tapmaster
 
tapmaster said:
RD I agree about rigid cuffs. I remember the old days of having two or three links between the cuffs. I don't like plasticuffs either. It was the big craze back in the days. I prefer to have the rigid or hinged cuff as we called them in the states.

Regards

Thng recently
Tapmaster
Click to expand...

There are some massive advocates out there for plasticuffs, especially the new fold down type (can't remember their name) but having recently done a demonstration on applying plasticuffs to a fighting male, it proved extremely awkward. For one guy it took 6 blokes about 5 mins to get cuffs on.

Rigid cuffs are easier, one cuff on tight and twist away until they comply or something pops, hopefully something of theirs.
 
We are allowed to work (Sweden)with extendable batons only if we had a 2 day training and pass the exam.
Public order guards=Door supervisors, ordinary uniformed and civilian security guards and of course the cp operatives together with 9mm pistol. I never used it but could be useful with multiple attackers. Hawk
 
A reply on this topic. But what I say won't be remotely applicable to your work in the UK. Frankly, I don't know how the Police can function in the UK. The constraints on them are tremendous. The Public expects the Police to be wonderfully nice people who don't even whack someone with a baton. But they also expect the Police to defend Westminster from terrorist attacks. It's a ridiculous set of expectations.

A couple of thoughts on batons. One is an amusing - but true - story from Los Angeles. I knew a guy who was a cop there. And they had to go into a bar fight to stop a huge Samoan who was out of control - too much beer. It took about 3-4 officers to bring him down. And the guy I spoke to slammed a baton with full force into the knee of this huge guy. It did take him down, but not easily. The blow would have shattered the bones on most people. A few days later the cop was walking down the street. And there was the Samoan - large as life, in good health, and walking with a slight limp. But sober. He was apologetic. And he said to the cop - "I don't know why you hurt me like that!"". And then he walked off. Some people have enormously strong bones. A baton will not always save you :-)

I carried telescopic batons when I used to go to Africa. Although they seem like a good idea - and they are tough - I never wound up actually using one. And I think that if someone jumped you very fast, you might not even have time to deploy it. Better to use something simple in your rucksack - that's also very strong. Carry some sort of hand broom that's made out of very strong wood. But you still can't do anything like this in the UK. And the advice that was given - start with UNARMED skills - is excellent advice.

Cheers, KL
 
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