Pre-emptive Knife taking

i would say a thread like this with all the different views on the subject would be a good starting point of the security staff being armed ( not fire arms )

ext batons or the old truncheons ( spelling maybe wrong lol )

i have a extendable baton with me over here ( im not to have one by law but ) and think they are great a few months with a good stick fighter instructor ( Philippine lad exmil air force police) and away to go

if in the uk the government would get the sticks out of their arses them maybe we would be better off

im sure the police could put a course together for the security staff and would also bring in a good sum of cash for the police them selves

just a thought ed
 
good point mate

reacting armed within the law with a course and government behind you

reacting unarmed within the law but basic as in your right to defend yourself

i can see what your saying but not all security staff these days really know what they can and cant do ( thanks to the SIA )

i have done like im sure others on here stuff that maybe not lawful to get the job done some times the civ pol turn a blind eye but nowadays it seems to have changed its now all about arse covering and that should not be apart of the job

theres the job and getting it done no matter who is ofended bu what is done to get the end result

safety for yourselves and others around you should be the starting point i dont know how it goes in isreal but in the UK over the last few years its becoming a joke

i hope this is what you meant mate lol

cheers ed
 
ed said:
good point mate

reacting armed within the law with a course and government behind you

reacting unarmed within the law but basic as in your right to defend yourself

i can see what your saying but not all security staff these days really know what they can and cant do ( thanks to the SIA )

i have done like im sure others on here stuff that maybe not lawful to get the job done some times the civ pol turn a blind eye but nowadays it seems to have changed its now all about arse covering and that should not be apart of the job

theres the job and getting it done no matter who is ofended bu what is done to get the end result

safety for yourselves and others around you should be the starting point i dont know how it goes in isreal but in the UK over the last few years its becoming a joke

i hope this is what you meant mate lol

cheers ed
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Only lawful.

My question is: when is a gun a solution to a knife fight . If so, in what scenarios and if not, when and why?
M
 
i never said gun mate there is no way the UK will ever have fire arms for security we cant get the police armed let alone us

and as i cant answer your reply mate regarding guns being a solution as i have never worked with firearms i would not know

but useing a baton to disarm a knife attacker would be of use to many as knife crime over the last 10 years in the UK has risen 10 fold

sorry i cant answer the question mate ed
 
Oddjob said:
KL with all respect.
you can also be stabbed and die,
the latter only the once I find.
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Bang on the money as usual OJ

My first time was some drunken, mad bitch I disarmed in the kitchen. Not to worry though, she got her revenge by sinking her teeth into my bollocks in the back of the marked police motor.

The second was an absolute berserker Neo Nazi who put a Hitler Youth dagger through an Armadillo shield. But then couldn't get it out. Oh Dear, how sad LOL! But I still got a 3" gash in my hand throwing the shield to one side.

The third, and most dangerous, I inadvertently walk in on a biker striping someone who's been giving his missus a seeing to. He's got matey boy on his knees and the guy's hands are a welter of defence wounds where he's been fending the man off, and I judge, he's just about to finish the job when I stroll in (the girlfriend lied, told me the ex was unarmed) He turns to face me and gives me the stare, for a couple of heartbeats I think "Oh F@ck!" Then he smiles, shrugs his shoulders, reverses the handle and gives it to me. I could have kissed his feet!

If you don't understand the last sentence don't bother posting
 
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mts ... very good line of thinking. Let's define the situation we're talking about.

We are talking about a close-quarters fight where you have a pistol and your opponent has a knife (which is already drawn). This is an extremely dangerous situation. But a very interesting one - because it could happen :-)

First, I would hope that I already had my pistol drawn (out of a holster) by the time I got to this moment in the confrontation. If you're still trying to draw your weapon - you might make it but the odds favor the guy with the knife. There's a LOT that he can do in the split second it takes you to go for that gun. Certainly you would want to turn your body so your gun hand is towards the rear, and your free hand is fending off the knife attack. That is still really risky, though. Chances of getting slashed are good.

Next, I would want the gun to have a bullet in the chamber, and the safety OFF. Why - because I need to fire the weapon as soon as possible. However, this is a real problem ... because if you are drawing the weapon it's most likely that neither of these conditions are true. Racking the slide on an automatic pistol normally requires both hands - that's a move you cannot afford to make against a guy who's coming at you with a knife. It is possible to rack the slide against your body, but it's a move that needs to be practiced. You may need to shove the attacker away for a second with your free hand - so you can gain enough time to get a bullet in the chamber and the safety off.

Third, i definitely would not extend my arms when firing the weapon. That would be very risky.
again, that would be giving the knife guy a huge advantage. I would fire my weapon from the hip (the rear hip), or the chest - But with the gun resting against my body. In this situation I would not be sighting the weapon - just firing based on alignment.

All told, this is a realistic - but extremely dangerous - - scenario for someone in the CP world. Timing and "no wasted movements" are everything in this scenario. The winner could be either person ... it just goes down to training, experience and mental confidence. Practice, practice, practice.

mts .. I'm interested in your thoughts.

cheers,
KingLeonidas
 
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KingLeonidas said:
mts ... very good line of thinking. Let's define the situation we're talking about.

We are talking about a close-quarters fight where you have a pistol and your opponent has a knife (which is already drawn). This is an extremely dangerous situation. But a very interesting one - because it could happen :-)

First, I would hope that I already had my pistol drawn (out of a holster) by the time I got to this moment in the confrontation. If you're still trying to draw your weapon - you might make it but the odds favor the guy with the knife. There's a LOT that he can do in the split second it takes you to go for that gun. Certainly you would want to turn your body so your gun hand is towards the rear, and your free hand is fending off the knife attack. That is still really risky, though. Chances of getting slashed are good.

Next, I would want the gun to have a bullet in the chamber, and the safety OFF. Why - because I need to fire the weapon as soon as possible. However, this is a real problem ... because if you are drawing the weapon it's most likely that neither of these conditions are true. Racking the slide on an automatic pistol normally requires both hands - that's a move you cannot afford to make against a guy who's coming at you with a knife. It is possible to rack the slide against your body, but it's a move that needs to be practiced. You may need to shove the attacker away for a second with your free hand - so you can gain enough time to get a bullet in the chamber and the safety off.

Third, i definitely would not extend my arms when firing the weapon. That would be very risky.
again, that would be giving the knife guy a huge advantage. I would fire my weapon from the hip (the rear hip), or the chest - But with the gun resting against my body. In this situation I would not be sighting the weapon - just firing based on alignment.

All told, this is a realistic - but extremely dangerous - - scenario for someone in the CP world. Timing and "no wasted movements" are everything in this scenario. The winner could be either person ... it just goes down to training, experience and mental confidence. Practice, practice, practice.

mts .. I'm interested in your thoughts.

cheers,
KingLeonidas
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Thanks for taking the time to post.

Do you really want my thoughts on the above ? ;-)

m
 
mts - I'll try this reply again. I just lost a message ... it's a darn nuisance when that happens.

yes - I'd like to hear your feedback. But I suggest that you send it to me by a Private Message. Be aware that I don't do CP work for a living. I am primarily a "knife guy" (knives and sticks), and I don't rehearse the gun vs. knife encounter very often. In our own blade system - we are testing techniques constantly. Taking them apart, analyzing them, putting them back together. we only keep what works. I was just over at the training gym this morning working on knife vs. knife with my instructor. Training is constant :-)

So yes ... send me a private message and we can talk.

cheers,
KingLeonidas
 
Using a weapon of any kind is fraught with danger for the user.
It's a small but vital matter of practise, and experience.
With a large dollop of common sense drawn in.
Now many people will ramp up a situation by reaching for the said weapon first.
Some call it precaution, others call it lack of confidence.
Will the weapon bearer have had sufficient training and assessment to be sure they can wield this tool responsibly, if the SIA have anything to do with it, we'll no they won't.
If you look at many of the martial arts, weapons in many cases were everyday tools, rice flails, staffs, canes etc.
They were used in hand 10 to 12+ hours a day.
The muscles and feel for their use were developed in every way. and an old master of mine maintained that to use a weapon without harming or endangering yourself, you should be practising or using that weapon daily for long periods of time.
I have seen in the bad old days, guys rack out batons to only see them fly down the pavement at the first sweep.
Or produce them in the narrowest of corridors and by so doing, restrict their defence so much as to make it a danger to themselves,.
Practise x training = ability. Just by having a weapon, does not make it an effective tool of defence.
I am practising every day with a cane and my umbrella, and slowly I am getting there.
Just some thoughts from an old hand.
 
mts said:
Thanks for taking the time to post.

Do you really want my thoughts on the above ? ;-)

m
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Yes please mate :)
It's always interesting and often helpful when someone who knows what they are doing, constructively take apart the post of someone who doesn't know what they are talking about (no offense KL)
 
What defines if you use a gun, or your legs/arms against a knife is primarily distance. If too close, you need to create distance prior to using a firearm.

Trying to use a firearm without sufficient distance can easily result in you losing. Sufficient distance is NOT an arms length. I have seen a knife attacker charging and covering a room in a VERY short time.


Action #1 when fighting a knife wielding attacker - create distance
Action #2 - focus on the person, not on the knife (if the person is knocked the &^%( out, you're in control, right?)

Good thread and good points all.

m
 
mts ... very true.

everyone ... quick story. I train my moves daily. To test them out - I do drills with a young guy. He's very fit, lots of energy, wants to go into the US special forces. Guys like this are great for training, because they just don't quit. They're always challenging everything you say ... and no matter what you do to them - they just bounce back. :-)

Anyway, a week ago we're going through drills for a knife fight (knife vs. knife). And in the middle of the moves, this young guy whips out a pistol. I had no idea he even had it on his body. It wasn't loaded, of course. But he had hidden the gun in the waistband at the back of his trousers (Mexican carry). He very smooth ... in one instant he had it pointed right at me. What do you think happened?

I moved the knife in my right hand and hooked away his arm (with the gun). It was a fast move on my part - but it was just total reaction. I didn't even even think. I was threatened .. I just shot out and eliminated the problem. Then finished with the knife.

At that instant in time my knife move worked because his arm (with the gun) was held out. He had extended his gun arm. If instead he had kept the gun close to his body ... I don't know how it would have played out. Guns and knives create very strong psychological reactions - esp. at close range. Everything turns on an instant in time. Could he have pulled the trigger before I got my knife to him? Good question. It's an unknown.

Anyway - that's just one possible outcome. But it does show what can happen at close quarters if the guy with the knife is very familiar with his moves.

cheers,
KingLeonidas
 
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May I suggest that anyone advocating disarming people with knives as the Original Poster described, firstly send their mates to me so that we can ensure they are trained properly to deal efficiently and effectivbely with penetrating injuries and lacerations, because i fear that individuals could easilly become victims of their own ego. Even then the outcome may not be successful.
 
Phecta ... +1. Right you are.

It's very possible that a "successful" knife defense still means that the winner has serious penetration injuries. I'd be very interested in taking your course. Hope you will publish more details - length of training and cost.

On any given day when I am practicing knife defense (empty hand vs. knife) with my instructor, I may come home with a half a dozen nasty looking bruises on my body. Every bruise represents an instant where the instructor has stabbed me with a trainer knife (metal, blunt). He has stabbed me hard enough to cause pain and leave a good bruise on my skin - but not enough to cause permanent injury (he's good enough to do that - and I hate it). That's called "learning the hard way" :-)

Naturally - I do think about the consequences if those stabs had been real :-)

KingL
 
Phecta said:
May I suggest that anyone advocating disarming people with knives as the Original Poster described, firstly send their mates to me so that we can ensure they are trained properly to deal efficiently and effectivbely with penetrating injuries and lacerations, because i fear that individuals could easilly become victims of their own ego. Even then the outcome may not be successful.
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thats the most sensible thing ive read on this thread..... ive trained with a fella called Karl Tanswell from manchester who used to train American police forces on his program Survival Tactics Against Blades.... STAB. He taught it from personal experience after being attacked with knives..... His first technique.... if you can run away! Obviously not an option in this line of work but check it out on you tube.... guy talks a lot of sense..... no ninja techniques here!
 
titanx said:
thats the most sensible thing ive read on this thread..... ive trained with a fella called Karl Tanswell from manchester who used to train American police forces on his program Survival Tactics Against Blades.... STAB. He taught it from personal experience after being attacked with knives..... His first technique.... if you can run away! Obviously not an option in this line of work but check it out on you tube.... guy talks a lot of sense..... no ninja techniques here!
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Karl Tanswell - S.T.A.B. Program (Preview) - YouTube

Just watched this and have to say; taking it at face value am not impressed with it?

That guy changing hands with the knife and the nice rehearsed slip across to the other arm to continue controlling the weapon hand looked like a well rehearsed slip across to the other arm to continue controlling the weapon... If you see where I am going with that?

Why are people being trained to lock up someone with a blade? Why are they not employing an immediate defence and counterstrike to break or interfere with the attack chain; then following through with a control element and then delivering a series of blows?
 
Phecta said:
May I suggest that anyone advocating disarming people with knives as the Original Poster described, firstly send their mates to me so that we can ensure they are trained properly to deal efficiently and effectivbely with penetrating injuries and lacerations, because i fear that individuals could easilly become victims of their own ego. Even then the outcome may not be successful.
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Absolutely agree - but there is going to be a time when someone does not have a choice. That's why we prepare.
 
I coach mma at a gym where they teach kali which is the Philippino art i think your referring too Scab and I love watching the dog brothers do there thing.... but bring live blades into the equation and i just think its a whole different ball game.
 
Scab said:
Karl Tanswell - S.T.A.B. Program (Preview) - YouTube

Just watched this and have to say; taking it at face value am not impressed with it?

That guy changing hands with the knife and the nice rehearsed slip across to the other arm to continue controlling the weapon hand looked like a well rehearsed slip across to the other arm to continue controlling the weapon... If you see where I am going with that?

Why are people being trained to lock up someone with a blade? Why are they not employing an immediate defence and counterstrike to break or interfere with the attack chain; then following through with a control element and then delivering a series of blows?
Click to expand...

Probably as you will get cut to ribbons in the process of delivering strikes to a bloke with a knife....
 
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