Last edited by a moderator:
You will all love this!
- Thread starter aj11
- Start date
Well that is great news.. a 18yr old still wet behind the ears with a shiny new ds license and a Physical Intervention bolt on module not fit for purpose (pi module or ds training 95% of the time) will be better equiped to work a door than those of us with cp training, bonafide first aid training and usually a martial art or two under our belts. because they will know how to cope with the 14-18 age group. BOLLOCKS
I assume the one day PI training will win through if someone wants to work on a door, if you dont want to work the door you wont need the PI training.
still bollocks
regards
premier
I assume the one day PI training will win through if someone wants to work on a door, if you dont want to work the door you wont need the PI training.
still bollocks
regards
premier
Last edited:
RocketDodger
Longterm Registered User
I just love the bit about 14 to 18 year olds...
It's not even funny anymore, it's all geared towards parting you from your hard earned cash in exchange for a shiny new badge for a mickey mouse qualification which proves nothing. That is the SIA ethos in a nutshell. The SIA is a non organisation which exists solely to tax individuals working in the Security Industry. Do you really think a CRB check and shitty plastic badge cost 300 notes? YOU are being taxed even before you earn a penny! Do Bankers have an equivalent organisation???
The SIA and G4S.... a marriage made in heaven.... for their shareholders which includes a number of politicians
It's not even funny anymore, it's all geared towards parting you from your hard earned cash in exchange for a shiny new badge for a mickey mouse qualification which proves nothing. That is the SIA ethos in a nutshell. The SIA is a non organisation which exists solely to tax individuals working in the Security Industry. Do you really think a CRB check and shitty plastic badge cost 300 notes? YOU are being taxed even before you earn a penny! Do Bankers have an equivalent organisation???
The SIA and G4S.... a marriage made in heaven.... for their shareholders which includes a number of politicians
Last edited:
I actually agree with them, sorry!!
What does the average CP know about licensing laws?
What does he/she know about how to run a door at a night club?
CP work and DS work are separate entities and skills, we all do event work (DS requirement) but this is not running a door at a hard night club, as a CPO I have only experienced, and had to deal with, violence at events, I gave up doing door work a long time ago.
I know doormen who are awesome at conflict resolution, dealing with problem people and, if they have to, can eject a violent person, or persons, out of a venue before they know that they have gone out the door. Most CPOs just do not have those skills gained from 10,20,30 years working the doors.
We pick CPOs because they look good, are polite, well mannered and suit the venue. The CP course I did included the FAAW qualification and a week in the gym doing PI, I was a R&A instructor in the Army and this very similar. CP Course now do not include either, someone mentioned having black belts from NINJITSU under their belts, not a good thing to get into a fight on a door in a night club, OK for getting a client out of trouble if you, as their CPO have messed up, but you would probably end up in court.......
As a final though, it would do no harm to give CPO's who have never worked the door on a proper licensed premises a grounding in that field, I have a friend who runs a lot of doors up in Carlisle, Manchester and Glasgow, I would not go anywhere near them, I have not the experience or the skills......
best and stay safe
KT
What does the average CP know about licensing laws?
What does he/she know about how to run a door at a night club?
CP work and DS work are separate entities and skills, we all do event work (DS requirement) but this is not running a door at a hard night club, as a CPO I have only experienced, and had to deal with, violence at events, I gave up doing door work a long time ago.
I know doormen who are awesome at conflict resolution, dealing with problem people and, if they have to, can eject a violent person, or persons, out of a venue before they know that they have gone out the door. Most CPOs just do not have those skills gained from 10,20,30 years working the doors.
We pick CPOs because they look good, are polite, well mannered and suit the venue. The CP course I did included the FAAW qualification and a week in the gym doing PI, I was a R&A instructor in the Army and this very similar. CP Course now do not include either, someone mentioned having black belts from NINJITSU under their belts, not a good thing to get into a fight on a door in a night club, OK for getting a client out of trouble if you, as their CPO have messed up, but you would probably end up in court.......
As a final though, it would do no harm to give CPO's who have never worked the door on a proper licensed premises a grounding in that field, I have a friend who runs a lot of doors up in Carlisle, Manchester and Glasgow, I would not go anywhere near them, I have not the experience or the skills......
best and stay safe
KT
Brengunner
Longterm Registered User
I dont have a problem with perhaps CPOs having to do the extra training so they can carry on doing doors in betweens jobs, if the SIA go ahead with option 1 i think would be the best way to go about it.
Gaining P.I, Counter terroisum and this bleedin 14 to 18yr old part, which by the way would probly help not hinder, dealing with under 18s is a mind field if not knowing the whys and what fors when dealing with this age group.
If the SIA go down this route (option 1) then fine (obviously someone somewhere is trying to justify thier position), but they should encourage trainers to provide all apropriate training over a one day bolt on course costing a fair amount for people to do in one hit, making it nice and easy to carry on working the doors.
Why shouldnt a CPO work the doors, personally i think they should, it can only help not hinder when carrying out thier roles as a CPO, another angle to help them deal with situations when with thier principle.
So a currently qualified CPO goes on a course and gets thier updated training, then on renewal they provide evidence that they are up to date, they can work doors, simples!!
Oh and by the way they mention a basic first aid knowledge, well thats a no brainer, due to the fact that at CPO level its a requirement to have at least FAAW or FPOS, so happy days, which by the way only lasts three years and by your own submission must be renewed thereafter!!! although you dont have to prove on renewal that youve updated it????which i find very strange??? yet another example of the SIA not really showing us they care about inforcing anything outside the spetrums of them directly getting income to do so!
Funny that
Brengunner
Gaining P.I, Counter terroisum and this bleedin 14 to 18yr old part, which by the way would probly help not hinder, dealing with under 18s is a mind field if not knowing the whys and what fors when dealing with this age group.
If the SIA go down this route (option 1) then fine (obviously someone somewhere is trying to justify thier position), but they should encourage trainers to provide all apropriate training over a one day bolt on course costing a fair amount for people to do in one hit, making it nice and easy to carry on working the doors.
Why shouldnt a CPO work the doors, personally i think they should, it can only help not hinder when carrying out thier roles as a CPO, another angle to help them deal with situations when with thier principle.
So a currently qualified CPO goes on a course and gets thier updated training, then on renewal they provide evidence that they are up to date, they can work doors, simples!!
Oh and by the way they mention a basic first aid knowledge, well thats a no brainer, due to the fact that at CPO level its a requirement to have at least FAAW or FPOS, so happy days, which by the way only lasts three years and by your own submission must be renewed thereafter!!! although you dont have to prove on renewal that youve updated it????which i find very strange??? yet another example of the SIA not really showing us they care about inforcing anything outside the spetrums of them directly getting income to do so!
Funny that
Brengunner
I can see where they are comming from with regards to the 14 - 18 yr old bracket in so far as the UK Child Protection Laws have been tightened up a lot over the years, and its no longer as simple as just sending a 17 yr old out of the door because he has been found to be under age, the "Duty of Care" issue comes to play.
However, I Do believe that they could have come up with a self learning CPD Package for those with Close Protection Licences to enable them to then sit an online test simular to the driving theory test, and as such just charge around £10.00 plus the Door Supervisor badge fee.
Who is talking to the SIA from within the Industry on these issues? Getting someone to represent the members from this forum may be an idea and a way foreward.
However, I Do believe that they could have come up with a self learning CPD Package for those with Close Protection Licences to enable them to then sit an online test simular to the driving theory test, and as such just charge around £10.00 plus the Door Supervisor badge fee.
Who is talking to the SIA from within the Industry on these issues? Getting someone to represent the members from this forum may be an idea and a way foreward.
it would make perfect sense, as DS and CP are very different roles indeed.
a lot of CP could learn a lot by working a door for some time, and see the public at their glorious best.
sadly the stumbling block is yet again the sylabus, the required traing and the ignorance of those who havr decided what is needed.
the lunatics truly have taken over the asylum.
a lot of CP could learn a lot by working a door for some time, and see the public at their glorious best.
sadly the stumbling block is yet again the sylabus, the required traing and the ignorance of those who havr decided what is needed.
the lunatics truly have taken over the asylum.
Mucho Gracias Amigo!! Thank You.
Just a point, someone asked who was representing the industry on this point, go to the SIA website and complete their feedback form and everyone can represent out industry and have their opinion, at least, read!
I do like the idea of distance learning with an on line test for some of the syllabus, it would not cover the issue of PI training though.
Stay Safe
You know, we are not the only regulated industry in the UK. And comparatively speaking, we are pretty loosely regulated at a very low cost.
Boo ****ing hoo. Poor us again. Whatever. I spend more on overpriced corporate coffee a year than keeping up with the SIA requirements. Get a grip.
i like the taste of coffee and i dont mind paying extra for a nice one.
It cheers me up and gives me a boost for the day.
improving my quality of life.
The SIA does none of these.
can you honestly say that anything they have done or had a hand in, has actually improved our quality of life.
NO.
their efforts have been at the detriment of our reputation.
it has weakened the industry for now and especially for the future.
in terms of quality, ability and pay.
so ye boo hoo is right scab,
i weep for the future of all of you.
I'm alright jack, i am covered, but those of you with honour and integrity who wanted to be something in the world we inhabit.
well the SIA and the TPs are doing all they can to sink you it seems.
It cheers me up and gives me a boost for the day.
improving my quality of life.
The SIA does none of these.
can you honestly say that anything they have done or had a hand in, has actually improved our quality of life.
NO.
their efforts have been at the detriment of our reputation.
it has weakened the industry for now and especially for the future.
in terms of quality, ability and pay.
so ye boo hoo is right scab,
i weep for the future of all of you.
I'm alright jack, i am covered, but those of you with honour and integrity who wanted to be something in the world we inhabit.
well the SIA and the TPs are doing all they can to sink you it seems.
Can anyone clarify a point on the same update from the SIA.
It states that all Door supervisors must have the new upskilling module certification by february 2013, is this even if their badge is not up for immediate renewal? does it mean all door sups who have not done a PI module have to do so? even those who have renewed their licence recently?
Excuse my questions and apparent thickness (Oddjob - no comments please!
but I am confused to say the least as originally the upskilling was meant to be for renewals and now it seems it is right across the board.
It states that all Door supervisors must have the new upskilling module certification by february 2013, is this even if their badge is not up for immediate renewal? does it mean all door sups who have not done a PI module have to do so? even those who have renewed their licence recently?
Excuse my questions and apparent thickness (Oddjob - no comments please!
but I am confused to say the least as originally the upskilling was meant to be for renewals and now it seems it is right across the board.I agree, however since DS licensed persons are working RST, doesn't the same apply to them. What does DS training have to do with protecting a client at there home or hotel. What do they know about Surveillance awareness or more importantly, since they only have a DS license, they cannot by law, escort the client out of a burning hotel.
Last edited:
You are right, however I am sure that the DS doing RST at the private residence you are referring to are protecting the property, NOT the client or they would need a CP badge wouldn't they? If they are working in a hotel, surely they are protecting the clients room and property and NOT the client, or they would need a CP badge wouldn't they? In fact both of the above, looking after property, can be carried out on a Security Guarding badge and, you are right, surveillance awareness is not taught on THAT course.
As for the burning building, I am sure that a chamber maid can escort anyone out of one but as to your point maybe, just maybe using DS in RST roles is wrong and you should be using people that have done a CP course and hold a CP licence to carry out RST roles when the client is there.
Maybe I am wrong!
Stay Safe
KT
Can anyone clarify a point on the same update from the SIA.
It states that all Door supervisors must have the new upskilling module certification by february 2013, is this even if their badge is not up for immediate renewal? does it mean all door sups who have not done a PI module have to do so? even those who have renewed their licence recently?
Excuse my questions and apparent thickness (Oddjob - no comments please!
This is from the SIA website and the bit in bold and underlined is the bit you are interested in:
You don't need to re-take your training if you currently hold a licence and you are looking to renew it. However, if you attained your qualification before the current ones were introduced (Summer 2010) then you won't have undertaken some of the training that people with the newer qualifications will have received.
In the interest of public safety, additional training, which includes physical intervention, will from 4 February 2013 be a compulsory requirement for anyone who hasn't already done it when they renew their licence.
If you hold a door supervisor licence but carry out the licensable activities of a security guard (that is, you do not work in relation to licensed premises) then you may after 4 February choose to swap to a security guard licence when your licence comes up for renewal. You will not have to take additional training in order to do so, just request 'Security Guard' on your renewal application (Section B - Application Type).
Exactly Gloves The DS badge and training does not cover RST of a personal residence.
They have little or no knowledge of how a CP team behaves and interacts.
The skills are different, they do over lap and certain attitudes have to be adapted, shaped and fashioned to run in tandem.
But The skills and adaptions have to be taught and learned.
Door work and CP is like black and white.
I have no idea how people can compare.
The mind boggles, and what is the point of doing a PI course once a year? Unless you do something continuously a 1000 times over until muscle memory is strong enough for a task to become a natural reaction rather than a thinking process.
You don't break lap records around a track racing it once a year.
You can't be good at weapons handling doing a 7 day course once a year.
You don't get strong going to the gym once a month.
Door work isn't exactly rocket science.
I have no idea how people can compare.
The mind boggles, and what is the point of doing a PI course once a year? Unless you do something continuously a 1000 times over until muscle memory is strong enough for a task to become a natural reaction rather than a thinking process.
You don't break lap records around a track racing it once a year.
You can't be good at weapons handling doing a 7 day course once a year.
You don't get strong going to the gym once a month.
Door work isn't exactly rocket science.
Last edited:
ENJ. Door work as you possibly know it, may not be Rocket science.
I can count what i consider great DS on the fingers of both hands
(and no not because I can't count past ten, I could always take my socks off if I'm stuck)
I have had ex RMP CP guys on gardening leave on my door, and they have failed miserably, caused more trouble than they solved, I have had serving and ex coppers also, the serving ones, disappeared during the trouble as they couldn't be involved (so we got rid of them) The ex ones had a good eye, but often got caught up in the letter of the law rather than the spirit of the law. they learned with time, and we gained much advantage with the groups through a little give and take.
often through self policing.
there are many, many skills to be learned as a DS, all those grey personal skills of control and persuasion when dealing with the different types of the general public.
In my belief persuasion and reason, are of better use when those on the recieving end understand that the stick can and will be delivered, as well as the carrot attitude being sweet and agreeable.
Good DS have the mind set, the ability and the aptitude to become good CP, and RST is possibly a good first contact route.
But they must understand, have knowledge of and interact properly with the CP teams
That initailly takes training, as sadly a lot of the CP teams out there do not have the knowledge themselves to impart the required knowledge to a newbie.
and just to return the compliment ENJ a lot in fact the majority of new CP operators are far, very far from being rocket scientists.
And that's a sad fact.
A whole different mind set and approach has to be employed to deal with the many varied cultures, groups and up close unarmed and outnumbered.
But with education, help and example they got up to a decent standard, but not all of them.
I can count what i consider great DS on the fingers of both hands
(and no not because I can't count past ten, I could always take my socks off if I'm stuck)
I have had ex RMP CP guys on gardening leave on my door, and they have failed miserably, caused more trouble than they solved, I have had serving and ex coppers also, the serving ones, disappeared during the trouble as they couldn't be involved (so we got rid of them) The ex ones had a good eye, but often got caught up in the letter of the law rather than the spirit of the law. they learned with time, and we gained much advantage with the groups through a little give and take.
often through self policing.
there are many, many skills to be learned as a DS, all those grey personal skills of control and persuasion when dealing with the different types of the general public.
In my belief persuasion and reason, are of better use when those on the recieving end understand that the stick can and will be delivered, as well as the carrot attitude being sweet and agreeable.
Good DS have the mind set, the ability and the aptitude to become good CP, and RST is possibly a good first contact route.
But they must understand, have knowledge of and interact properly with the CP teams
That initailly takes training, as sadly a lot of the CP teams out there do not have the knowledge themselves to impart the required knowledge to a newbie.
and just to return the compliment ENJ a lot in fact the majority of new CP operators are far, very far from being rocket scientists.
And that's a sad fact.
A whole different mind set and approach has to be employed to deal with the many varied cultures, groups and up close unarmed and outnumbered.
But with education, help and example they got up to a decent standard, but not all of them.