CP and RST Pay Scales/ New Rates proposed.

Good points ! Ask any of the ACS Companies how much work they actually get from being ACS. I even saw a web site last week where the comapny had no acreditaion logos (SIA etc) on its web site ! so how can cleints go for the best ! Beats me. In closing i hope the CP Reps have considered anti stab vests for the meeting as i have no doubt the so called Security Industry Leaders will come with sharpened sticks. JT
 
Whilst I understand and indeed agree with the call for better rates in the industry and I have previously stated it is only the guys working can affect them and indeed I laid the blame squarely at the feet of the industry, I must say this is probably the wrong financial climate to try and instigate an increase in pay rates...

All industries are currently cutting rates in an attempt to hold on to current contracts and steal new ones..

My desk has recently been littered with new and lower quotes for differing services. Everything from alarm companies , both intruder and fire, CVT companies, training providers and industrial refuse collectors are trying to either keep their current contract at a lower rate, or encourage me over to their new service...

I do not believe this is the time for the better members of the industry to make a stand. We all know there will be a large number of, er, less professional types who will always provide lower quotes and in these times of financial uncertainty the clients will look with favour on these lower quotes..
 
Very similar is happening to doorstaff, at this rate the whole security industry will be f*cked! I'd join a union, i feel it would definately give us a fighting chance. Hope it works Shakespear, well done.
 
Shakespeare - et al... This takes me back to a post which I commented on recently - (I believe it was entitled "Private Operators" for anyone wishing to view..)

This is my own personal opinion...

Anything which sets a reasonable rate of pay, and encourages proper working conditions (medical and life insurance anyone?) for the industry in which we work can only be a bonus.
As anyone on here who negotiates for contracts with clients will attest, the client has an obligation to secure contractors for the lowest price possible, The CP/PSD operator is fighting a losing battle, when the market becomes saturated with contractors.
The emphasis then switches from quality to cost.

I frequently have to argue the toss on the rates we charge, and frankly, it p***es me off!.
Who is going to care if you've got 10yrs exemplary military service - followed by ten years operational CP/PSD experience - if Joe Bloggs down the road did a course this year, and will work for one quarter of your rate??

THAT, is where the problem lies.

Everybody has to start somewhere, and everybody, I'm sure has found themselves on the receiving end of a 20 hour shift, rolling into the next... and the next...

But standards have to come into the equation somewhere.

I would be in favour of a Union, or some kind of controlling body, which argues for a fair wage and conditions.

If I have to work for £150 a day, to compete with other operators I will - and do.
- but I won't be happy.

My life is worth more than that... (although I think my wife would like the insurance money!!)

R.
 
EXCELLENT.

It is about time this was properly voiced. I know of many scare stories and actual experiences of employers just telling the lads to 'put up or f**k off'. This happened to a whole load of blokes in Basra around late summer 2005, when the first issue of massive wage reductions was voiced.

These companies are billing clients huge ammounts for OUR services, OUR lives, and giving us peanuts. No pun intended, but pay peanuts, get monkeys. There a great ammount of lads and lasses properly trained, and therefore should be given a proper wage.

This the best thing that could happen to this industry, but it has to be done properly. Possibly approach other trade unions and seek their advice, this has to be done legally so that union members that pay their fee's get the backing of the union.

Annual fee's could be paid, lets say start of each tax year, this pays for expenses of ELECTED union officials, time should be given freely. All members are then given numbers to ring or officials to call on when the employer is being less than reasonable. We all know people that would be good for these positions, if they get too big for their boots or employment SEEMS to come to them quicker (for some reason) and they succumb to pressures of money) then they are voted out.

It will be interesting to see the doubters, but, in my humble opinion, there can be nothing but good to come out of a fully fledged union.

Cheaper personal insurance and better working conditions to name just a few....

Great news....UP THE REVOLUTION COMRADES.....(meant in the nicest possible way)
 
A further point on this debate, if the union grows, which most of us would reasonably think, then companies who employ none union workers (possibly because they are untrained) will untimately come unstuck when their clients start to die or get guys falling asleep on duty, they will then learn their lesson and start to go through the union for further contact with reputable companies. Again increasing standards.

Sorry guys, but I hope I'm on my soap box preaching to the converted here, and can only hope we can have of the educated ones around us to properly debate this very important issue.
 
Hi all,

Well, certainly a good thread.

The socialist in me is more than supportive of a union, but Im not sure it is the answer to the issues being raised here.

One of the big issues seems to be pay.

This, to me, is driven by supply and demand - and that's all there is to it.

And what, exactly, are we saying a CP operative should be earning ? Who says £80 a day is bad ?

Why should it be £200 or some such figure.

We could debate this all week and not come up with an answer - but we dont have to, as market forces had done it for us !

I think the first thing is we need to accept that there is no big CP market in the UK, and we have far more people chasing the jobs than jobs available.

Its the same thing in the IT industry, where they have seen wages slashed - and many IT operators have spent fortunes in training when you add in cost of degrees and what have you.

Well, thats life - dont get into the IT industry then!

Same with CP - dont spend a few grand on a course - theres no work - do something else instead.

I also see the SIA licence comes in for a lot of flack - but Im not sure its really fair to blame them.

Yes, things maybe could be done better, but at least we now have a system in place - at the very least holders have to pass a CRB so thats a plus (of sorts).

I dont think that its a case that the SIA have opend the flood gates for everyone to get into CP and its destroying the industry - the same thing was happening even before the SIA (again, I think its because there is 'no industry')

Getting the CP licence is just the first step - some jobs may hire you just on that, others wont - again, such is business.

I have a driving licence - which nowadays costs a small fortune itself when you count up lessons etc - I can easily earn a living with it as a taxi driver.

I cant just send off my CV to Ferrari and expect to be driving in next seasons F1 though !

It seems to me that this is how some people see the CP world and then get disillusioned when it all turns out wrong.

And that point can also lead onto an interesting debate as to what does constitute an experienced CP operative ?

Years served as a soldier and then a few as CP in Iraq ? Maybe, maybe not - depends on the job.

10 years as a DS - again, depends on the job - some doormen deal with more difficult situations on a day to day basis than a shed load of CP ops may ever face.

So my point is - its not the SIA licence or SIA fault over who gets what job, and I think that top, experienced guys will always find the work - its the rest that are moaning about it because they are chasing work that they will never find.

I think one thing that many people need to do who are looking for work within CP is to broaden their horizons and accept that, whilst there may be lttle or no such thing as a 'CP industry' there is a security industry, and go and explore more of what is out there, including uniformed roles.

I agree that in some areas of the country jobs are hard to come by, but it amazes me when I meet mates who live in the South (as I do) who sit around all day saying they cant find work and are desperate to pay the bills - well go and get a bit work in as a security officer then !

Most ex forces guys will still find £100 a day (minimum) as uniformed security - and whos to say the work is worth more or less than a CP role (well, ive already answered that question, market forces)

I dont mean to sound negative against the CP world - Im certainly not - and I wish there was good work for everyone - Im just trying to be a realist.

Too many people are parting with cash to do courses that will never get them work.

Although that said, a good CP course is never waisted - it could save your life in the pub one saturday night !

All the best

Steve
 
Marian said:
.......there is 130 000 people with valid Security Guard licence...........there is about 105 000 people with valid DS licence............Number of security qualifications held 5,914 (presumably CP)
Click to expand...


 Why form a Union?????

By doing so you will run the risk of the employers perceiving this as a threat.

In the UK you already have a regulatory body for the security industry. According to the figures quoted, there a nearly 241,000 people holding a valid SIA license of one form or another. Thats nearly one quarter of a million signatures on a document to petition the SIA to fulfill their obligations to the industry and regulate it fully.

Come on folks, wake up to the realisation that you already have power to influence the industry.

Shakespeare.......may I be so bold as to offer a suggestion........Although you seem to well supported on this issue, have you considered the option of directly petitioning the SIA?

The UK must be close to a general election and 241,000 signatures is one hell of a thump on the doorstep of the SIA.
 
The wages are not correct ... CP Operatives don't work for peanuts ...
Just fresh meat work with that wage ...
The minimum wages for CP Operatives are In UK 200 pounds a day with all expenses paid
And abroad 300 pounds wilth all expenses paid . and half of the wages ap front .
 
Agreed, but as you know daily can mean anything from 10 – 18 hours!
Very difficult to actually negotiate with some clients especially when you are engaged third hand with so many Mr Fixits in between.
And od course there will always be some numpty who will undercut you.
Even US Corporates are now quizzing rates and upfront payments.
Dam this recession
 
A Union or representative body is a fine idea, and I fully agree that we should be represented. I thought this was already in place. A little used group called the SIA. We apply,register and pay this association and in return, we get what. A shit service, no contact, a corrupt management and no representation. Tear it down and start again. 'All out brothers'. Lets go for a union . Better organized, working for us on our behalf. transperant and accountable. The CP world is a mess, we all know it. Get a Union . But who would have us, when we are full of 'I'm alright Jacks'.
 
Union....uumm not sure, i have had some time to think about this. I was ready to back the idea but the more i think about it the more i think i will be a bad thing. Mainly because it will be done wrong. To many people will want to see changes quickly. Sorry to speak idiot, but if you create a union you will spend 18 months getting members and informing companies about the union while dealing with really small problems. Then after about 2 years you could think about dealing with the pay issue if you wish as the union will actually have some power by then. However if you dont have enough members by then the companies will just walk all over you and it could be made worse for the members.

DS holders made a union and went for higher pay to soon and every company just walked all over them.


I Guess i am trying to say "if your going to do some then do it right. First Time Round"

MRW
 
Thanks for the reply. I get your point completely. I know the industry is full of 'I'm alright Jacks'. But without a centralised and co ordinated representation , well we all had to look out for ourselves. If not a UNION then make the SIA take up the gauntlet we are all members after all. So why not get them to find us a UNION to advance our cause. And MRW 2 years is a little time in this game . I've been at it 30 years. It just gets worse, less pay, worse conditions and feckless idiots entering the game and getting employment because they're cheap. If the pay was standardised with a realistic minimum for what we do. Surely the client would go for the best men, and not the cheapest. I know the word UNION is seen as a bunch of RED KENS. But we need an organisation that looks out for US. If SIA won't do it, then we better find some one else. Who might you suggest then ? We need to do something.
 
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Just as an update to the info I posted here several months ago [18-07-2008]:

Form SIA webpage
Last updated 16 February 2009.

Close Protection
Number of security qualifications held 6,840
Valid licences 4,858
Licences revoked 37
Applications refused 134

So from July last year, there are 937 more of valid licences.
 
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Oddjob,

It just needs to be done right and not rushed thats all i am saying otherwise we will all be wasting our time. Agree with your comments about SIA thou.
 
Having read all the posts I can understand how a union would help the profession, my only worry is those that don’t join could undercut the pay rate set by a union (not that that’s not happening now) and it would push out members of the union .

It is unfortunate but lots of people do have the mindset of "I’m all right, jack" and this will always be the case.

I am in favour of a union but it needs to be a “closed shop” for it to succeed.
 
Union, yes a great idea, but what about the many clients / principles who employ you and dont want to hear this. Take it or leave it there are a lot of people working for such people. they will have no problem telling the driver to pull over and let this person get out. Believe me I have seen it first hand. We are talking about clients mainly form other countries who have the money and expect the goods, if you dont supply em then no job, simple as that
 
Hey mr Shakespeare, what news of the union idea. Do you think its viable. if so, what aid can the 70 people who thanked you offer. Or do we need to hammer it out on the forum further. Any ideas on a suggested union and why ?
The offshore divers example was an inspired choice , well done Shakes'.
Don't want this to die. To many good guys out there, to be abandoned to treading water.
 
Is there a list of suitable representative bodies unions, whatever, who can represent us.
Can we create a rolling list, then invite the list to post proposals, ideas etc.
Some 7 -8 days since this was last mentioned , I know its frustrating, but we can't leave it as we are.
There's a lot better minds, and more determined lads out there than I.
Can some one start the ball rolling. Please.
 
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